Ex SAA Captains at Nationwide
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minimas
Well skyvan,I think you answered that yourself.
In your message you suggested that if the older guys cant take the hard work and push minimas a bit they should be in the pub at the golf course. Seeing as you are not at the pub on the golf course you must be working hard and pushing minimas a bit. Is there something wrong with my logic or did I miss interpret your post.
In your message you suggested that if the older guys cant take the hard work and push minimas a bit they should be in the pub at the golf course. Seeing as you are not at the pub on the golf course you must be working hard and pushing minimas a bit. Is there something wrong with my logic or did I miss interpret your post.
Join Date: Mar 1999
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Briefly, Brabazon1, I don't do golf, or booze I do work hard, and I don't push minimas.
This is also not a pissing contest about SAA.
My comments are based on what I observe and am told about the current LCC ops (Comair excluded), and then deduce from those observations and stories.
I do not think that a 60+year old should be flying a hard roster. As a person ages, so their stamina reduces. So experience has to overcome both the situation, and tiredness. Therefore, IMHO, (another one of my opinions, just like my first post on this topic), they should not be doing the job.
LCC jobs should be for the "new" pilots, those prepared to work hard in return for the break. Those pilots who have already had a career behind them should allow that break to occur, and not be an impediment to the new blood.
That is all I shall say on this thread.
Brabazon1, if you wish to continue debating my opinions/ability/whatever, please feel free to use the private message button, I will be happy to respond.
This is also not a pissing contest about SAA.
My comments are based on what I observe and am told about the current LCC ops (Comair excluded), and then deduce from those observations and stories.I do not think that a 60+year old should be flying a hard roster. As a person ages, so their stamina reduces. So experience has to overcome both the situation, and tiredness. Therefore, IMHO, (another one of my opinions, just like my first post on this topic), they should not be doing the job.
LCC jobs should be for the "new" pilots, those prepared to work hard in return for the break. Those pilots who have already had a career behind them should allow that break to occur, and not be an impediment to the new blood.
That is all I shall say on this thread.
Brabazon1, if you wish to continue debating my opinions/ability/whatever, please feel free to use the private message button, I will be happy to respond.
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"to push minimas a bit."
Skyvan you surprise me........do you actually do this????
Now for a new can of worms........!!!!!!!!
Anyway I see you answered it for me. Ta!
"LCC jobs should be for the "new" pilots, those prepared to work hard in return for the break. Those pilots who have already had a career behind them should allow that break to occur, and not be an impediment to the new blood."
Agree with you wholeheartedly...pity others don't follow your lead!!!
Skyvan you surprise me........do you actually do this????
Now for a new can of worms........!!!!!!!!
Anyway I see you answered it for me. Ta!
"LCC jobs should be for the "new" pilots, those prepared to work hard in return for the break. Those pilots who have already had a career behind them should allow that break to occur, and not be an impediment to the new blood."
Agree with you wholeheartedly...pity others don't follow your lead!!!
Join Date: May 2005
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If things are so bad for the CE FO’s why not strike? According to what’s been said it certainly will not be a career limiting move!!! Old Vern has this knack of avoiding industrial action- why is that?
If you are a FO at CE then your approach must be that you are there for jet time and that’s it- another step on the ladder that makes you more employable than the next guy -let market forces take care of the rest. The moment CE see that they are running a training academy instead of an airline then they will take notice because it affects their wallet.
Like it or not but SAA will have to begin recruitment in the future- then there is the new LCC that’s taken 47 pilots out of the market with at least that number identified for further recruitment. Some of the CE guys who applied could not meet the start date criteria and were therefore not considered for the first round- this will not be the case in the future when the timelines are not as tight and allowance can be built in for notice periods etc. There will, however, be a bias to crew with B737 experience for obvious reasons and the first few courses have been designed with this in mind. This approach would not have been taken of there was not a steady supply of good candidates available.
If you are a FO at CE then your approach must be that you are there for jet time and that’s it- another step on the ladder that makes you more employable than the next guy -let market forces take care of the rest. The moment CE see that they are running a training academy instead of an airline then they will take notice because it affects their wallet.
Like it or not but SAA will have to begin recruitment in the future- then there is the new LCC that’s taken 47 pilots out of the market with at least that number identified for further recruitment. Some of the CE guys who applied could not meet the start date criteria and were therefore not considered for the first round- this will not be the case in the future when the timelines are not as tight and allowance can be built in for notice periods etc. There will, however, be a bias to crew with B737 experience for obvious reasons and the first few courses have been designed with this in mind. This approach would not have been taken of there was not a steady supply of good candidates available.
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Deskjocky,I can't see how SAA will ever recruit form the market place in the near future as you say.
Firstly with the -800's moving across to the LCC, there are going to be 47 or so surplus SAA pilots absorbed into the airline. Apparently this will sort out the current crew shortage that exists.
Secondly should more -800's move across to the LCC - which is anticipated, then there will in fact be no place for new recruits since SAA will have an overstock situ. Please correct me if I'm on the wrong track here.
As far as direct entry Captains into NTW is concerned - an unfair practice - as has been said before. Those guys who are in line for command will then seek greener pastures or ...sandier ones....for that matter. Said direct entry will hang around for a year or so.....then either chuck it in or move across to the LCC to join their other mates. So now you have a scenario where you have no suitable qualified SFO's to move up the ladder, as they've moved on to those greener and not so green pastures.So leaving a void.......
Do you think VB cares......not a damn....otherwise he wouldn't be doing this in the first place.
I hope the NTW guys sort this stuff out 'cos the industry doesn't need it!!!!
Firstly with the -800's moving across to the LCC, there are going to be 47 or so surplus SAA pilots absorbed into the airline. Apparently this will sort out the current crew shortage that exists.
Secondly should more -800's move across to the LCC - which is anticipated, then there will in fact be no place for new recruits since SAA will have an overstock situ. Please correct me if I'm on the wrong track here.
As far as direct entry Captains into NTW is concerned - an unfair practice - as has been said before. Those guys who are in line for command will then seek greener pastures or ...sandier ones....for that matter. Said direct entry will hang around for a year or so.....then either chuck it in or move across to the LCC to join their other mates. So now you have a scenario where you have no suitable qualified SFO's to move up the ladder, as they've moved on to those greener and not so green pastures.So leaving a void.......
Do you think VB cares......not a damn....otherwise he wouldn't be doing this in the first place.
I hope the NTW guys sort this stuff out 'cos the industry doesn't need it!!!!
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Well said Beechbum. I think Lady Buxton is first of all pulling the wool over VB's eyes and secondly is not aware of the problem that is about to manifest itself at NTW regarding the loss of crew. I'm sure VB would have a coronary if he knew of half the goings on in FLT OPS at the moment.
There is definitely a lack of foresight in management at the moment. Some might view the intake of these DEC's as planning for the loss of crew, but in actual fact the problem is only being magnified and making itself worse.The more senior F/O's will now leave sooner as they realise they have absolutely no possible future career at NTW together with the DEC's leaving to be with colleagues at the LCC.
This is a viscious (sp ?) circle that could actually be stopped, or least curbed by management showing a little loyalty to the more senior F/O's (that meet the requirements and are capable) by giving them an opportunity for advancement. Not that this will be free/gratis - they will of course have to sign bonds (al la NTW style) which would keep them there that little bit longer!! Makes sense to me!!
There is definitely a lack of foresight in management at the moment. Some might view the intake of these DEC's as planning for the loss of crew, but in actual fact the problem is only being magnified and making itself worse.The more senior F/O's will now leave sooner as they realise they have absolutely no possible future career at NTW together with the DEC's leaving to be with colleagues at the LCC.
This is a viscious (sp ?) circle that could actually be stopped, or least curbed by management showing a little loyalty to the more senior F/O's (that meet the requirements and are capable) by giving them an opportunity for advancement. Not that this will be free/gratis - they will of course have to sign bonds (al la NTW style) which would keep them there that little bit longer!! Makes sense to me!!
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Beechbum, not so….. SAA will have to recruit for a number of reasons:
1- SAA's domestic schedule remains the same - even after the LCC launch, this situation will carry on for at least the next 3 years. I know there is all this talk of the LCC taking over the fleet but I can assure you that NO allowance has been made in the domestic business plan for this. Me thinks the LCC will get its 4 800's and then will have to fight for whatever it needs from there -the higher utilization the domestic fleet is now going to deliver will really improve the mainline bottom line so it will be a question of where will the asset generate the best return. I’m not for a moment insinuating that the LCC will not grow- I just think that there is a lot of money to be made in the mainline domestic operation that will be difficult to walk away form when the time comes, expect to see aircraft orders.
2- 2010 is around the corner, SAA has committed to government that it will increase capacity by the order of 50% on some routes- more planes=more pilots. Expect to see some aircraft orders
3- Lastly there is the natural attrition of the pilot body, people will retire in steady numbers- this is a fact. I also don’t see the extension past 60 issue lasting- its screws the younger pilots and I’m sure some time or another they will do something about it.
There seems to be this perception that SAA is looking to close up short haul operations- simply not true- things are going to work differently, all will be revealed later in the year.
1- SAA's domestic schedule remains the same - even after the LCC launch, this situation will carry on for at least the next 3 years. I know there is all this talk of the LCC taking over the fleet but I can assure you that NO allowance has been made in the domestic business plan for this. Me thinks the LCC will get its 4 800's and then will have to fight for whatever it needs from there -the higher utilization the domestic fleet is now going to deliver will really improve the mainline bottom line so it will be a question of where will the asset generate the best return. I’m not for a moment insinuating that the LCC will not grow- I just think that there is a lot of money to be made in the mainline domestic operation that will be difficult to walk away form when the time comes, expect to see aircraft orders.
2- 2010 is around the corner, SAA has committed to government that it will increase capacity by the order of 50% on some routes- more planes=more pilots. Expect to see some aircraft orders
3- Lastly there is the natural attrition of the pilot body, people will retire in steady numbers- this is a fact. I also don’t see the extension past 60 issue lasting- its screws the younger pilots and I’m sure some time or another they will do something about it.
There seems to be this perception that SAA is looking to close up short haul operations- simply not true- things are going to work differently, all will be revealed later in the year.
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I know this is off track here but more aircraft......?????
SAA is R7.6 BILLION in debt........does that mean more of my hard earned money is going to fund a shiny new A320 or such like. It boggles my mind....but then this is SA anything is likely to happen. Oh yes forgot about 2010......another joke waiting to happen.
Apologies for my pessimism but the tunnel is very dark....ummm that brings me onto the Gautrain......ooopss I'm digressing!!!!
Anyway back to the NTW problem......stick by your guns fellas......!!!!
Anyway I hope you're right that SAA needs crew as there are quite a few Nigerian pilots and the like looking...........
On a SERIOUS NOTE I do follow your posts quite closely Deskjocky and unlike me you tend to make a bit of sense!!!!!...... You were right about this low cost thingy....and presto here we are. So for all those guys out there that are waiting in the wings for a crack at the airlines, I'm hoping that you are right. Then you haven't been that far wrong in the past.
Thanks for the info and we'll see what transpires.
Still doesn't solve the NTW dilemna........though
SAA is R7.6 BILLION in debt........does that mean more of my hard earned money is going to fund a shiny new A320 or such like. It boggles my mind....but then this is SA anything is likely to happen. Oh yes forgot about 2010......another joke waiting to happen.
Apologies for my pessimism but the tunnel is very dark....ummm that brings me onto the Gautrain......ooopss I'm digressing!!!!
Anyway back to the NTW problem......stick by your guns fellas......!!!!
Anyway I hope you're right that SAA needs crew as there are quite a few Nigerian pilots and the like looking...........
On a SERIOUS NOTE I do follow your posts quite closely Deskjocky and unlike me you tend to make a bit of sense!!!!!...... You were right about this low cost thingy....and presto here we are. So for all those guys out there that are waiting in the wings for a crack at the airlines, I'm hoping that you are right. Then you haven't been that far wrong in the past.
Thanks for the info and we'll see what transpires.
Still doesn't solve the NTW dilemna........though
Last edited by beechbum; 24th Aug 2006 at 10:38.
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AS Inop,
I can assure you VB knows whats going on. Thats his style! He firmly believes there will always be pilots looking for a job. And so far, history has proved him correct.
Sad, but there you are. He will not give up control.
I can assure you VB knows whats going on. Thats his style! He firmly believes there will always be pilots looking for a job. And so far, history has proved him correct.
Sad, but there you are. He will not give up control.
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Seems like some of you have forgotten what it was like to (or better still, never had to) sit in a craphole for months at a time flying who knows what around in small aeries, through bad weather...just to get to the place you all are complaining about right now.
Maybe a little more time with an experienced captain is just what you guys need to come down to earth. I will pay hard currency to get to the position you are moaning about.
Did they tell you when you signed your employment contract when you'd be ready for command? In fact, did you sign your contract? Then, what are you moaning about? If its so bad, why not leave the nice domestic schedule your on that allows you to go home every night to your gorgeous wife/girlfriend and lets you live in the best country in the world, and come back to contracts and be a captain here on a 1900 et al.
Im also quite sure that some1 somewhere in every one of us' history made it very clear that you'll never get rich from flying.
VB ownes his airline and he'll run it as he pleases. If you dont like it, dont work for him... better yet...have the guts and go see him about it. Dont come blast the boss in an public forum. Thats just low class.
Maybe a little more time with an experienced captain is just what you guys need to come down to earth. I will pay hard currency to get to the position you are moaning about.
Did they tell you when you signed your employment contract when you'd be ready for command? In fact, did you sign your contract? Then, what are you moaning about? If its so bad, why not leave the nice domestic schedule your on that allows you to go home every night to your gorgeous wife/girlfriend and lets you live in the best country in the world, and come back to contracts and be a captain here on a 1900 et al.
Im also quite sure that some1 somewhere in every one of us' history made it very clear that you'll never get rich from flying.
VB ownes his airline and he'll run it as he pleases. If you dont like it, dont work for him... better yet...have the guts and go see him about it. Dont come blast the boss in an public forum. Thats just low class.
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Foo Fighter,
First of all, we all hope you get an airline job soon! But seeing as though you are against the upgrading of F/O's to Captains, it seems the F/O's will remain in the positions that you Yourself would like to occupy.
I don't think anyone has forgotten contract flying, it's just that if no-one does any thing in the airlines to make it more pleasant for pilots to fly in, you might be better off stayng on contract.
Maybe you'll understand someday when you are in the airlines. But that'll be quite some time from now seeing as though there's stagnation at the moment. Maybe you need to rethink your point of view.
First of all, we all hope you get an airline job soon! But seeing as though you are against the upgrading of F/O's to Captains, it seems the F/O's will remain in the positions that you Yourself would like to occupy.
I don't think anyone has forgotten contract flying, it's just that if no-one does any thing in the airlines to make it more pleasant for pilots to fly in, you might be better off stayng on contract.
Maybe you'll understand someday when you are in the airlines. But that'll be quite some time from now seeing as though there's stagnation at the moment. Maybe you need to rethink your point of view.
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Originally Posted by Foo-Fighter
Seems like some of you have forgotten what it was like to (or better still, never had to) sit in a craphole for months at a time flying who knows what around in small aeries, through bad weather...just to get to the place you all are complaining about right now.
Originally Posted by Foo-Fighter
Maybe a little more time with an experienced captain is just what you guys need to come down to earth. I will pay hard currency to get to the position you are moaning about.
Originally Posted by Foo-Fighter
Did they tell you when you signed your employment contract when you'd be ready for command?
Originally Posted by Foo-Fighter
In fact, did you sign your contract? Then, what are you moaning about? If its so bad, why not leave the nice domestic schedule your on that allows you to go home every night to your gorgeous wife/girlfriend and lets you live in the best country in the world, and come back to contracts and be a captain here on a 1900 et al.
Originally Posted by Foo-Fighter
Im also quite sure that some1 somewhere in every one of us' history made it very clear that you'll never get rich from flying.
Originally Posted by Foo-Fighter
VB ownes his airline and he'll run it as he pleases. If you dont like it, dont work for him... better yet...have the guts and go see him about it. Dont come blast the boss in an public forum. Thats just low class.
By the way, if you want to get into an airline, you might want to change your attitude. One day you'll be in the same boat, plus the current policies are actively preventing new pilots from making it into Nationwide - that means YOU.
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Shrike200
Hey feller, don't get too uptight about the situation. And YES, I know, it is easier to say than to do. The fact is that these ex-SAA dropouts have been taking work from younger and more deserving pilots for years and it is not about to stop now. As long as there are people like VB blowing smoke up their @rses by making them feel that their experience is that keeps the airline going, and as long as they have alimony payments to make; those idiots will be delaying your command.
Years ago, when I was still building time at Impala Air and (the original) Inter Air Charter at Lanseria, there were a bunch of similarly minded ex-SAAF/ex-SAA individuals taking the bread out of our mouths. The wheel turns pal. Let me tell you that I know of at least three of those fellers who's expatriate lifestyles today, dictate the quality of their lives right down to their current miserable existance.
Head up, shoulders back, and beat them at their game.
Years ago, when I was still building time at Impala Air and (the original) Inter Air Charter at Lanseria, there were a bunch of similarly minded ex-SAAF/ex-SAA individuals taking the bread out of our mouths. The wheel turns pal. Let me tell you that I know of at least three of those fellers who's expatriate lifestyles today, dictate the quality of their lives right down to their current miserable existance.
Head up, shoulders back, and beat them at their game.
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Foo - fighter, as they say.....every village has one...!!!
You've just shot your self rightly in the foot and as Shrike so correctly put it..how on earth do you expect to leave your arse end of the world flying your "little" aeries as you put it if the shananigans(sp?) at NTW continue? If there are no promotions within you ain't going to see anything but your little aerie for a very very long time.
This is not a discussion/debate with regards to experience levels....rather one of fairness to allow those that have paid there dues and gained the much needed expereice to gain that coveted left seat.
Have a think fighter boy because with your attitude maybe a little aerie going through the weather is probably the place where you need to stay.....!!!
By the way Shrike200 nicely put....'bout sums up everything!
You've just shot your self rightly in the foot and as Shrike so correctly put it..how on earth do you expect to leave your arse end of the world flying your "little" aeries as you put it if the shananigans(sp?) at NTW continue? If there are no promotions within you ain't going to see anything but your little aerie for a very very long time.
This is not a discussion/debate with regards to experience levels....rather one of fairness to allow those that have paid there dues and gained the much needed expereice to gain that coveted left seat.
Have a think fighter boy because with your attitude maybe a little aerie going through the weather is probably the place where you need to stay.....!!!
By the way Shrike200 nicely put....'bout sums up everything!