Intersection Take-Off

[saywhat]

Originally Posted by fluffyfan

Goldfish, you say
Having witnessed how the traffic flows in London or the US, with many times the volume that we have here, perhaps you could enlighten me why we often end up waiting 5 min between departures (same aircraft type) on a day with not a cloud in the sky, often explained as congestion with Radar. Not trying to pick a fight, but how come they can handle the volumes they do in London and we cant handle the volumes here, is it equipment, training, different separation rules? it cant all be due to poor runway layout.

SA ATC's undoubtedly control more traffic in SA (JNB) than any other controller anywhere in Europe or the USA. Perhaps not numbers of a/c, but numbers of a/c spoken to simultaneously. Only so many a/c can be controled at any one time for two reasons. Firstly because of time constraints, and secondly to ensure there is not an information overload for the person controlling. The ATC's can only talk to so many a/c at a time. If more sectors could be open, more traffic could be moved. Unfortunately there is a staff shortage in SA, which will not be remedied in the near future. In the UK and USA, there are many ATC's on duty, and therefor they only talk to perhaps 10 a/c in their sector before handing that traffic off to another sector. In SA, ATC's also have to control large volumes of traffic out of Lanseria off 06 simultaneously to a/c out of JNB off 03. Both a/c might be flying south, so just because you don't see the a/c doesn't mean it's not there.

The ATC's are still restricted to 5 mile separation. With the small TMA, and high traffic volumes, this greatly increases their workload. This, I believe is one of the reasons the new STAR's position a/c on downwind rather than base.

I am not an ATC, but I do understand their predicament. I can absolutely 100% vouch for the fact that these professionals do try to to offer as good and expeditious a service as possible.

[fluffyfan]

I would agree, the individual controllers in my opinion are excellent, its the system and management (ie pay conditions of service etc) that tend to let the system down, maybe more controllers, better pay, but hey lets be frank this is SA..............management (not all sorry its a generalisation) are 50 years behind the first world and its often a case of having the right skin colour and not the right qualifications...........just my opinion

[putt for dough]

thats right fluffly...just your opinion.
we are all entitled to our own opinions!

[Shrike200]

Originally Posted by fluffyfan

....management (not all sorry its a generalisation) are 50 years behind the first world........

Nah, it's pretty much all of them!

[saywhat]

If you are early for departure why not phone JHB and see if they can accomodate an earlier landing slot?
Intersection departure are never initiated by ATC in Sa and no intersection departures are allowed if the runway is wet , if it's LVP's or if at night .It's a liability issue.

[Q4NVS]

As far as I understand our SOP's, we can do Intersection Departures whenever the performance figures allow for this (day or night), except with LVP's.

Wet Runway - can even still do Reduced Power/Thrust Take-Off's, but not when it becomes a Contaminated Runway (there is a difference).

[Stierado]

There is no way in HELL that JNB are busier than the London airports...

We only fly to Stansted which is a London satelite and some days at rush hour you dont even get a chance to check in on the frequency with all the "break-break calls".

Volume of traffic in the London zones is far greater than JNB.

Controllers everywhere do a fantastic job thou.

[topo di radar]

ICAO allows for intersection departures. However local state/county regulations or as ICAO refers to them (local ATS Authorities) may impose restrictions there-upon. Reasons for intersection departures are redundant to ATC's as the PIC is ultimately responsible for safety of aircraft and passengers.

In ref to SA ATC's being busier per controller than those in the USA or Europe, somewhat of a naive perspective. SA ATC's have an extremely high standard to which they operate and do indeed work a high level of traffic, but compared to many cetres in the USA, even at county level, they are rather tame when it comes to any one number of aircraft on any frequency at any given time.

The same applies to Europe and most of the Middle East.