Comair Transforming SA Aviation
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Same kak different day...will be talking about the disadvantaged till 2030 or more in this country.
With 10000 hrs under my belt I'll keep pissing around Africa like the real men in aviation and drink at a real bar with real people who appreciate what aviation is about...
Just another company bowing to the political pressure of playing the numbers game...just the same as in our sport.
Whats new?
With 10000 hrs under my belt I'll keep pissing around Africa like the real men in aviation and drink at a real bar with real people who appreciate what aviation is about...
Just another company bowing to the political pressure of playing the numbers game...just the same as in our sport.
Whats new?
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I see that there were protests recently in the USA about affirmative action at a university there (maybe more than one, and I don't know much more than that unfortunately), so it's clearly still an issue for them. Their education shake up happened in the 60's didn't it? So, lets see, it's 40 years on now....our situation is worse, give it twice as long.....so maybe affirmative action will be outlawed over here in about 2074 or so? Vasbyt! 
Seriously though, this is a problem we're just going to have to work around, not that most of us had anything to do with apartheid. We'll suffer, while those who weren't oppressed will have advantages over us. When we see blatant examples of idiocy though, you can bet we'll make a noise though!
To quote that sage, Homer Simpson: "If you don't like it, go to Russia!"
Seriously though, this is a problem we're just going to have to work around, not that most of us had anything to do with apartheid. We'll suffer, while those who weren't oppressed will have advantages over us. When we see blatant examples of idiocy though, you can bet we'll make a noise though!
To quote that sage, Homer Simpson: "If you don't like it, go to Russia!"
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It is rather disappointing to uncover so much outrage at a noble and just intervention. The kind of contention that exists in SA Aviation as a result of affirmative action etc is a latent safety hazard in Aviation Safety. I don't know the people that post on this forum, but it's very possible that i've flown with some and they are disgusted at this undeserving pilot sitting next to them that had everything handed to them in a silver platter. That can have disastrous consequences should a situation requiring the implementation of good CRM to handle an emergency etc. I therefore would support a call for the CRM courses in SA to include an element of improving relations across racial lines. This risk will escalate as more and more non pales enter the Flight Deck.
I've seen some threads being closed etc, because of hint of racial tones. Where does the freedom of expression concept start and end here at pprune? Racial issues/ Affirmative action affects everyone in SA Aviation and everyone talks about it in corridors etc. this is a perfect forum for these issues to be trashed out. I believe the more people talk, they are able to unload the burden. 4HP your comments please.
Le me close by re-iterating Well Done Comair, Change is overdue and SA Aviation needs more.
I've seen some threads being closed etc, because of hint of racial tones. Where does the freedom of expression concept start and end here at pprune? Racial issues/ Affirmative action affects everyone in SA Aviation and everyone talks about it in corridors etc. this is a perfect forum for these issues to be trashed out. I believe the more people talk, they are able to unload the burden. 4HP your comments please.
Le me close by re-iterating Well Done Comair, Change is overdue and SA Aviation needs more.
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Afriviation...
It seems that it is always you that manages to twist it back to racial lines.
I only have 2 points to state at this time...
1. Any pilot who has an understanding of CRM would not let whatever conflict there is between the crew, affect their performance in the air. Do your job, finish the flight and then sort the problem out on the ground.
2. The conflict is not their because of racial differences but purely because of the point... Do you deserve to be in that position?
I can gaurentee you Flyer14 will never have these "problems" you are having and when he gets to the airlines, he will have the respect that he deserves because he paid his dues, like all of us, to get there.
It seems that it is always you that manages to twist it back to racial lines.
I only have 2 points to state at this time...
1. Any pilot who has an understanding of CRM would not let whatever conflict there is between the crew, affect their performance in the air. Do your job, finish the flight and then sort the problem out on the ground.
2. The conflict is not their because of racial differences but purely because of the point... Do you deserve to be in that position?
I can gaurentee you Flyer14 will never have these "problems" you are having and when he gets to the airlines, he will have the respect that he deserves because he paid his dues, like all of us, to get there.
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4HP your comments please
I'm tired of your ill-founded expectant stance; your constant grand-standing on something that you believe has to do with aviation, yet is actually politically motivated and downright racist. You believe that because you're a non-pale that you should get some kind of a head-start over someone who was born a different color? Goes to show how screwed-up things are in SA. The sooner professional placements are made on a merit and qualification basis and you leave skin color out of the equation, the sooner I will believe that you lot are serious about this equality thing. Until then, you Sir are the racist.
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I therefore would support a call for the CRM courses in SA to include an element of improving relations across racial lines
4HP I salute you
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Cadet sceme
This thread is aimed at Afriaviation, seeing that you are the expert in the field of representivity in SA aviation.
I must agree with my colleague fluffyfan in regards to your current employer. I have met and spoken with many non - white pilots at SAA and although some of them has very strong standpoints about various issues, I have not perceived any of them as the racist you are.
Afriaviation please enlighten us with your great wisdom and knowlegde regarding the SAA and Comair cadett schemes.
1. What is the selection criteria?
2. What is the representivity?
3. What is the cost per cadett?
4. When they have completed the CPL, where are they placed and what criteria is used to place them?
5. What is the success rate of these cadetts? In other words, how many get washed because they do not perform? Are they in fact washed or just given another chance?
6. How is the scheme advertised?
7. What is the typical "carreer path" of a cadett?
I have many more question but fear not even one will be answered by you, judging the way you addressed previous posts requesting a response from you.
You make many statements but seem to lack the knowledge as to how these should be implemented.
To 4HolerPoler regarding your post in "Comair Transforming SA Aviation": Sir, I salute you. I think you have summed up Mr "Agrivation" very accurately and hopefully pushed his piles back a bit. Thank you for saying what many of us were burning to say.
I must agree with my colleague fluffyfan in regards to your current employer. I have met and spoken with many non - white pilots at SAA and although some of them has very strong standpoints about various issues, I have not perceived any of them as the racist you are.
Afriaviation please enlighten us with your great wisdom and knowlegde regarding the SAA and Comair cadett schemes.
1. What is the selection criteria?
2. What is the representivity?
3. What is the cost per cadett?
4. When they have completed the CPL, where are they placed and what criteria is used to place them?
5. What is the success rate of these cadetts? In other words, how many get washed because they do not perform? Are they in fact washed or just given another chance?
6. How is the scheme advertised?
7. What is the typical "carreer path" of a cadett?
I have many more question but fear not even one will be answered by you, judging the way you addressed previous posts requesting a response from you.
You make many statements but seem to lack the knowledge as to how these should be implemented.
To 4HolerPoler regarding your post in "Comair Transforming SA Aviation": Sir, I salute you. I think you have summed up Mr "Agrivation" very accurately and hopefully pushed his piles back a bit. Thank you for saying what many of us were burning to say.
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Some enlightening research. I did not cook these figures, they're from a reliable economist in South Africa
IT SEEMS that some circles cling to the belief that affirmative action has devastated the prospects for young white people and — to a lesser extent — coloured people.
Yet however much some people cherish this perception, the data show it is simply wrong.
Even if we take skills and age into account, unemployment remains highest among Africans, especially African women. Management in the private sector is still heavily dominated by whites with remarkably little change in representivity since the mid-1990s. And the poverty rate for whites is a fraction of the rate for the rest of the population.
The figures on joblessness demonstrate that non-Africans still have first claim on most jobs. In September 2004, unemployment ran at 46% for Africans under 30 years old. In contrast, it was 30% for coloureds and Asians in that age group, and 10% for white youth. Among African women under 30 years old, three out of four were unemployed.
Some of the discrepancy reflects differences in education. But significant differences remain even if we look at people with the same educational achievements. Thus, one out of 10 African university graduates under 30 was unemployed in September 2004. The figure was under one in 20 for other groups. In short, it is clear that the inherited racial hierarchy still largely determines who will get a job.
Even if they found employment, Africans were less likely than whites to hold powerful positions. In 2004, Africans constituted two-thirds of all employed people while whites made up a seventh. But Africans held just 14% of senior management positions in the private sector not counting the self-employed. Coloureds and Asians contributed 17% and whites 54%. Compared with data in the October household survey, representivity among private-sector managers had worsened slightly since 1996.
Even in the public sector, senior management was far from representative. The public sector accounted for about a fifth of all employees. Africans held 47% of senior management positions, coloureds 15%, and whites 39%. In other words, whites were over-represented by a factor of two.
As might be expected, the relegation of black people to lower levels in employment was reflected in the distribution of incomes. In 2004 only 7% of whites earned less than R1500 a month compared with 61% of Africans and 31% of coloureds. Meanwhile, Africans accounted for only a fifth of the top 5% of income earners, while whites made up nearly three-quarters. True, the situation was better than in 1996, when Africans constituted just a seventh of the high-income group. But the change was hardly overwhelming.
Perhaps the most disconcerting facet of persistent racial inequality relates to tertiary education. A university degree often forms a prerequisite for economic and social power. Yet in the early 2000s, Africans made up just more than half of all university students and less than half of students in historically white institutions. Meanwhile, whites made up a third of all university students, and two-fifths of those in the privileged schools.
True, lower levels of education contributed to worse economic prospects for Africans. But educational discrepancies should not be blown out of proportion. According to the September 2004 Labour Force Survey, Africans accounted for two- fifths of university graduates, about the same proportion as whites. The average African under 30 years old had about 10,5 years of formal education, compared with 11 years for the average coloured youth and 12 years for the average white. Given these data, why does the myth persist that affirmative action has had a tremendous effect?
One factor is that some individuals view the loss of privilege, not as a requirement for equality, but as a loss of entitlements. They resent the fact that they can no longer count on an assured career with the competition suppressed by law.
A second explanation lies in high unemployment itself, and especially the job losses of the late 1990s. It is fatally easy for some workers to blame ethnicity for the shortage of jobs, rather than the economic shifts associated with downsizing in the public sector and tariff reductions.
Ultimately, the only solution is to reduce the unemployment rate to well below the current crisis levels. No one wins if every group seeks only to increase opportunities for itself while a third of the labour force remains excluded from the economy.
The statistics referred to above are across the board in SA business. Aviation is on the other extreme with much less presence of non pales.
IT SEEMS that some circles cling to the belief that affirmative action has devastated the prospects for young white people and — to a lesser extent — coloured people.
Yet however much some people cherish this perception, the data show it is simply wrong.
Even if we take skills and age into account, unemployment remains highest among Africans, especially African women. Management in the private sector is still heavily dominated by whites with remarkably little change in representivity since the mid-1990s. And the poverty rate for whites is a fraction of the rate for the rest of the population.
The figures on joblessness demonstrate that non-Africans still have first claim on most jobs. In September 2004, unemployment ran at 46% for Africans under 30 years old. In contrast, it was 30% for coloureds and Asians in that age group, and 10% for white youth. Among African women under 30 years old, three out of four were unemployed.
Some of the discrepancy reflects differences in education. But significant differences remain even if we look at people with the same educational achievements. Thus, one out of 10 African university graduates under 30 was unemployed in September 2004. The figure was under one in 20 for other groups. In short, it is clear that the inherited racial hierarchy still largely determines who will get a job.
Even if they found employment, Africans were less likely than whites to hold powerful positions. In 2004, Africans constituted two-thirds of all employed people while whites made up a seventh. But Africans held just 14% of senior management positions in the private sector not counting the self-employed. Coloureds and Asians contributed 17% and whites 54%. Compared with data in the October household survey, representivity among private-sector managers had worsened slightly since 1996.
Even in the public sector, senior management was far from representative. The public sector accounted for about a fifth of all employees. Africans held 47% of senior management positions, coloureds 15%, and whites 39%. In other words, whites were over-represented by a factor of two.
As might be expected, the relegation of black people to lower levels in employment was reflected in the distribution of incomes. In 2004 only 7% of whites earned less than R1500 a month compared with 61% of Africans and 31% of coloureds. Meanwhile, Africans accounted for only a fifth of the top 5% of income earners, while whites made up nearly three-quarters. True, the situation was better than in 1996, when Africans constituted just a seventh of the high-income group. But the change was hardly overwhelming.
Perhaps the most disconcerting facet of persistent racial inequality relates to tertiary education. A university degree often forms a prerequisite for economic and social power. Yet in the early 2000s, Africans made up just more than half of all university students and less than half of students in historically white institutions. Meanwhile, whites made up a third of all university students, and two-fifths of those in the privileged schools.
True, lower levels of education contributed to worse economic prospects for Africans. But educational discrepancies should not be blown out of proportion. According to the September 2004 Labour Force Survey, Africans accounted for two- fifths of university graduates, about the same proportion as whites. The average African under 30 years old had about 10,5 years of formal education, compared with 11 years for the average coloured youth and 12 years for the average white. Given these data, why does the myth persist that affirmative action has had a tremendous effect?
One factor is that some individuals view the loss of privilege, not as a requirement for equality, but as a loss of entitlements. They resent the fact that they can no longer count on an assured career with the competition suppressed by law.
A second explanation lies in high unemployment itself, and especially the job losses of the late 1990s. It is fatally easy for some workers to blame ethnicity for the shortage of jobs, rather than the economic shifts associated with downsizing in the public sector and tariff reductions.
Ultimately, the only solution is to reduce the unemployment rate to well below the current crisis levels. No one wins if every group seeks only to increase opportunities for itself while a third of the labour force remains excluded from the economy.
The statistics referred to above are across the board in SA business. Aviation is on the other extreme with much less presence of non pales.
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What the above has to do with aviation? However, what are the requirements to be counted as african? Is it enough that one is born there and family been living over 100 years? From what country most of these wealthy whites are coming from, Europeans or Americans?
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8 Please...!
Afriaviation, you are really boring the 
out of me.
As for your last post, copying something from an article, is the easiest thing to do, you know?
Manipulating numbers, to reflect the picture that one needs/wants to see, is even easier. , one can even manipulate a Roulette Table to promise you a Million $'s.
What are you trying to say, or should we ask the Moderators to create an African Racial Forum with Soap Box, specifically for you..?
Get a life man, while ur at it, get a job as well!
out of me.As for your last post, copying something from an article, is the easiest thing to do, you know?
Manipulating numbers, to reflect the picture that one needs/wants to see, is even easier.
, one can even manipulate a Roulette Table to promise you a Million $'s.What are you trying to say, or should we ask the Moderators to create an African Racial Forum with Soap Box, specifically for you..?
Get a life man, while ur at it, get a job as well!
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Afriaviation
I have said it before........
LEAVE THE FLYING FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO FLY, pale or non-pale (to put it your "politically correct" manner).
Go and become a politician.....maybe YOU can then single handedly transform SA Aviation.
Flyer14 is a great example of some-one who is doing this flying thing for the right reasons. I think some of his qualities should rub off on you........Oh, I forgot, nothing can rub of on you, cause water just flows of a duck's back.............
LEAVE THE FLYING FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO FLY, pale or non-pale (to put it your "politically correct" manner).
Go and become a politician.....maybe YOU can then single handedly transform SA Aviation.
Flyer14 is a great example of some-one who is doing this flying thing for the right reasons. I think some of his qualities should rub off on you........Oh, I forgot, nothing can rub of on you, cause water just flows of a duck's back.............
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4HP and some of you have referred to me as a racist, well according to the definition here below, I cannot be a racist. Furthermore you choose to continue to being subjective about this issue by attacking the messenger, It will not work as I will not succumb to your insults and if I die tomorrow the problem will persist. Amazing how this forum perceives my posts as racist, whereas there have been hundreds of posts here lashing at policies aimed at transforming Aviation in SA. Trouble is, my posts are from the other side of the fence, I represent the other side of the story which is never heard. I WILL NOT SHUT UP.
Flyer 14, if you're really non pale, you might be enlightened by the last paragraph of this definition.
Racism is a global system of material and symbolic resource distribution management more comprehensively defined, in accordance with each of the following principles:
Principle I. Racism is an ideological, structural and historic stratification process by which the population of European descent, through its individual and institutional distress patterns, intentionally has been able to sustain, to its own best advantage, the dynamic mechanics of upward or downward mobility (of fluid status assignment) to the general disadvantage of the population designated as non-white (on a global scale), using skin color, gender, class, ethnicity or nonwestern nationality as the main indexical criteria used for enforcing differential resource allocation decisions that contribute to decisive changes in relative racial standing in ways most favoring the populations designated as 'white.'
Principle II. The aim of this peculiar post-1492 stratification process has been to aggregate an upwardly mobile and putatively 'white' racial group that is stratified internally and that strives to validate its own ascendancy using a shifting range of 'white' cultural practices which are defined as 'white' not on any presumed biological basis, but on the basis of "ideological whiteness"--a field of racial discourse and representation.
Principle III. The conceptual content of this historic and politically-charged discursive field is sustained by racial agents who in many ways articulate and justify the suppression of "ideological blackness" (and every form of non-whiteness this may entail) which may be accomplished by many formal and informal means of institutional domination, routinized interpersonal interactions, cultural imperialism, or by any other racialized means of information control.
Principle IV. As a generative principle of racism, "ideological whiteness" refers to a dual behavioral process entailing enactments of identify formation and resource access legitimation, both of which were practices once overtly recognized as aspects of "white supremacy," but which now may be more subtly and covertly reproduced as an observable and routine set of implicitly prescriptive, but explicitly disavowed white supremacist beliefs and practices to which all who identify as 'white' (or who behave as 'whitened') are expected to adhere--especially white males--if they wish to maintain their own racial standing as members of these two privileged 'white' groups and assert their negotiable right to privileged resource access.
Flyer 14 Note
Princple V. Collectively, the 'white' and/or 'whitened' members of this racially privileged global population tend to bolster their shared political intent to impose patterns of restricted resource access on racially subordinant populations, and aim to preserve their presumably non-negotiable right to prescribe, and even dictate, lessor resource access rights for certain upwardly mobile members of the 'non-white' population whose internalized racism, reliable complicity, and carefully scrutinized willingness to cooperate with racial dominates is always required and rewarded.
Dr. Helan Enoch Page
Associate Professor, Anthropology Department
University of Massachusetts-Amherst Distributed at the American Anthropological Association, 1993
Updated and extended, 1999
Flyer 14, if you're really non pale, you might be enlightened by the last paragraph of this definition.
Racism is a global system of material and symbolic resource distribution management more comprehensively defined, in accordance with each of the following principles:
Principle I. Racism is an ideological, structural and historic stratification process by which the population of European descent, through its individual and institutional distress patterns, intentionally has been able to sustain, to its own best advantage, the dynamic mechanics of upward or downward mobility (of fluid status assignment) to the general disadvantage of the population designated as non-white (on a global scale), using skin color, gender, class, ethnicity or nonwestern nationality as the main indexical criteria used for enforcing differential resource allocation decisions that contribute to decisive changes in relative racial standing in ways most favoring the populations designated as 'white.'
Principle II. The aim of this peculiar post-1492 stratification process has been to aggregate an upwardly mobile and putatively 'white' racial group that is stratified internally and that strives to validate its own ascendancy using a shifting range of 'white' cultural practices which are defined as 'white' not on any presumed biological basis, but on the basis of "ideological whiteness"--a field of racial discourse and representation.
Principle III. The conceptual content of this historic and politically-charged discursive field is sustained by racial agents who in many ways articulate and justify the suppression of "ideological blackness" (and every form of non-whiteness this may entail) which may be accomplished by many formal and informal means of institutional domination, routinized interpersonal interactions, cultural imperialism, or by any other racialized means of information control.
Principle IV. As a generative principle of racism, "ideological whiteness" refers to a dual behavioral process entailing enactments of identify formation and resource access legitimation, both of which were practices once overtly recognized as aspects of "white supremacy," but which now may be more subtly and covertly reproduced as an observable and routine set of implicitly prescriptive, but explicitly disavowed white supremacist beliefs and practices to which all who identify as 'white' (or who behave as 'whitened') are expected to adhere--especially white males--if they wish to maintain their own racial standing as members of these two privileged 'white' groups and assert their negotiable right to privileged resource access.
Flyer 14 Note
Princple V. Collectively, the 'white' and/or 'whitened' members of this racially privileged global population tend to bolster their shared political intent to impose patterns of restricted resource access on racially subordinant populations, and aim to preserve their presumably non-negotiable right to prescribe, and even dictate, lessor resource access rights for certain upwardly mobile members of the 'non-white' population whose internalized racism, reliable complicity, and carefully scrutinized willingness to cooperate with racial dominates is always required and rewarded.
Dr. Helan Enoch Page
Associate Professor, Anthropology Department
University of Massachusetts-Amherst Distributed at the American Anthropological Association, 1993
Updated and extended, 1999
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Afriaviation
You just confirmed the fact that you should be a politition............
Find another forum...you are realy BORING!!!!!!!!!!
By the way...anything on my request of information on the cadett schemes Oh Knowlegdable Pilotition????????
Find another forum...you are realy BORING!!!!!!!!!!
By the way...anything on my request of information on the cadett schemes Oh Knowlegdable Pilotition????????
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This will be my last reply on any subject that afriviation may post or
comment on. Not only pprune that can block is it.
We all know what the word racist means in our context and you are
surely not that st...????????
Ok, maybe you are.
But a racist, YOU? Never
hie hie hie hie hie hie
comment on. Not only pprune that can block is it.
We all know what the word racist means in our context and you are
surely not that st...????????
Ok, maybe you are.
But a racist, YOU? Never
hie hie hie hie hie hie