Upset South African
To all the pales hoping for a [U]career[U] in SAA, forget it ! IF the airline is forced to take you on in order to keep planes in the air, or to have a few token whites for show you will be at a continual disadvantage because of your colour.
Friends of mine who joined Air Zimbabwe in the 1990s were told on joining that they were automatically junior to any black pilot who joined after them. Most of them accepted this, got 737/767 ratings + experience, and went overseas as soon as they could. Cathay, Gulf Air, Emirates etc.
If you can slip in to SAA, get a decent type rating and some experience, and then go somewhere else while the SA licence is still well regarded. Remember the scandal a while back about licences for sale ? How much longer until your CPL/ATPL has the same status as a Nigerian one ?
To those flying 1900s, Twin Otters etc who don't get in, there are still options abroad. May have to buy a type rating or work in China or India but it can still be done.
Consider retirement as well, look at the Zimbabwe pensioners. You will be in the same situation when you retire and the Rand has collapsed.
Be realistic, look at the rest of Africa SA will be no different.
Friends of mine who joined Air Zimbabwe in the 1990s were told on joining that they were automatically junior to any black pilot who joined after them. Most of them accepted this, got 737/767 ratings + experience, and went overseas as soon as they could. Cathay, Gulf Air, Emirates etc.
If you can slip in to SAA, get a decent type rating and some experience, and then go somewhere else while the SA licence is still well regarded. Remember the scandal a while back about licences for sale ? How much longer until your CPL/ATPL has the same status as a Nigerian one ?
To those flying 1900s, Twin Otters etc who don't get in, there are still options abroad. May have to buy a type rating or work in China or India but it can still be done.
Consider retirement as well, look at the Zimbabwe pensioners. You will be in the same situation when you retire and the Rand has collapsed.
Be realistic, look at the rest of Africa SA will be no different.
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Carp
Another lurker here for some time now... forced to join to respond to some of the drivel.
Sorry that my first post is going to offend some.
So, if I understand the logic, those of us who cannot control our breeding rate are *entitled* to more representivity?
What a load of carp.
Why is it that any sector should have a racial make-up that is representative of "the majority"?
Isn't this racism??
/rant
Ok, now I need a beer.
Sorry that my first post is going to offend some.
So, if I understand the logic, those of us who cannot control our breeding rate are *entitled* to more representivity?
What a load of carp.
Why is it that any sector should have a racial make-up that is representative of "the majority"?
Isn't this racism??
/rant
Ok, now I need a beer.
Last edited by Jetdriver; 16th Mar 2006 at 11:24.
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Afriviation
Here's the thing that get me. It's all very well saying that all jobs must represent the demographic of the country.
But puzzle me this?
I was fortunate enough to go to a multi-racial private school in the bad old days (1980's). Now at this school the demographic was about 35% pales and 65% non-pales. I was always an aeroplane nut and wanted to be a pilot from about the age of 3. Now all these non-pales I went to school with came from very wealth families, way more than what my oldman was worth.
Now to the point, how come out of all these non-pales I went to school with not one of them even considered being a lowly pilot when there parents could well afford it. No all of them are today Doctors, Lawyers, Accounts etc.
Whereas I am a pilot, but my parents could not afford all of it, so I had to work, to earn enough to learn to fly. I did anything that paid, loaded trains at Kaserne and eventually even became and ATC to help pay my way.
At no point did the taxman come to me and say "Here Antman, here's the money to become a pilot". The only people that got the training paid where in the Airforce (That was medically not an option)
With all this in mind I ask you Afriviation, why are the South African Flying Schools not brimming with young middle to upper class non-pales wanting to be pilots. MAYBE BECAUSE IT DOES NOT APPEAL TO THEM!!!!! They are off becoming doctors, lawyers, accountant etc and good for them because that is there right.
So now tell me again why the pale pilots should be discriminated against????
As for the cadet scheme at SAA it is the most corrupt thing I have ever seen.
I am all for helping youngsters who CAN'T AFFORD IT of all backgrounds to become pilots but as for most of the SAA cadets it's unfortunate to say but there parents could well have afforded it and passed the oppertunity on to those that need and deserve it.
Just for the record, I have not spoken out of jealousy or spite as I have done fairly well with my flying career. I was a B737 captain at 29 (Not NW) and am busy doing my command on a widebody with a very large foreign flagcarrier age 36(It's not all bad in the sandpit guys), so this is just an observation, not an axe to grind.
Here's the thing that get me. It's all very well saying that all jobs must represent the demographic of the country.
But puzzle me this?
I was fortunate enough to go to a multi-racial private school in the bad old days (1980's). Now at this school the demographic was about 35% pales and 65% non-pales. I was always an aeroplane nut and wanted to be a pilot from about the age of 3. Now all these non-pales I went to school with came from very wealth families, way more than what my oldman was worth.
Now to the point, how come out of all these non-pales I went to school with not one of them even considered being a lowly pilot when there parents could well afford it. No all of them are today Doctors, Lawyers, Accounts etc.
Whereas I am a pilot, but my parents could not afford all of it, so I had to work, to earn enough to learn to fly. I did anything that paid, loaded trains at Kaserne and eventually even became and ATC to help pay my way.
At no point did the taxman come to me and say "Here Antman, here's the money to become a pilot". The only people that got the training paid where in the Airforce (That was medically not an option)
With all this in mind I ask you Afriviation, why are the South African Flying Schools not brimming with young middle to upper class non-pales wanting to be pilots. MAYBE BECAUSE IT DOES NOT APPEAL TO THEM!!!!! They are off becoming doctors, lawyers, accountant etc and good for them because that is there right.
So now tell me again why the pale pilots should be discriminated against????
As for the cadet scheme at SAA it is the most corrupt thing I have ever seen.
I am all for helping youngsters who CAN'T AFFORD IT of all backgrounds to become pilots but as for most of the SAA cadets it's unfortunate to say but there parents could well have afforded it and passed the oppertunity on to those that need and deserve it.
Just for the record, I have not spoken out of jealousy or spite as I have done fairly well with my flying career. I was a B737 captain at 29 (Not NW) and am busy doing my command on a widebody with a very large foreign flagcarrier age 36(It's not all bad in the sandpit guys), so this is just an observation, not an axe to grind.
Last edited by Antman; 16th Mar 2006 at 04:09.
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Originally Posted by Antman
why are the South African Flying Schools not brimming with young middle to upper class non-pales wanting to be pilots. MAYBE BECAUSE IT DOES NOT APPEAL TO THEM!!!!! They are off becoming doctors, lawyers, accountant etc and good for them because that is there right.
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I'm probably going to be very naive here and all due respect to the Zimbos who visit this website but quite honestly do you think SA will go down the proverbial toilet as quickly as you all say it will and as fast as Zimbobwe did. SA has vast infrustructures compared to Zim vast economies of scale vs the rest of Africa as a whole. So am wondering if it's all gloom. I know we see our roads and services deteriorating and everyone always says this is the beginning of the end. But is it? There is still development and growth in our country and compared to the rest of Africa, it far out shines it all!!!
I don't know but I would like to remain positive and continue to believe that SA is a good place to be!!! Maybe I have my head in the sand and not Afriman as I mentioned on another thread.....but hell some of us have got to stay positive.....hey!!!!
Now where's that bottle of whiskey so I can get my early morning shot to face the perils on the roads.....you know, the taxi's, the potholes and those darn Metro police always looking for that handout.
Viva SA Viva............!!!!!!!
I don't know but I would like to remain positive and continue to believe that SA is a good place to be!!! Maybe I have my head in the sand and not Afriman as I mentioned on another thread.....but hell some of us have got to stay positive.....hey!!!!
Now where's that bottle of whiskey so I can get my early morning shot to face the perils on the roads.....you know, the taxi's, the potholes and those darn Metro police always looking for that handout.
Viva SA Viva............!!!!!!!
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Yes, well said.
But it's like Beechbum said on the other 'thread which will not die' - this guy has his point of view, and he'll stick to it, no matter what. Don't bother with reasoning, it's been tried.
He won't respond with anything resembling a logical argument, or with solutions to his perceived problems, other than "There should be more black pilots, make it happen for free and right away, it's only racism when whites discriminate against blacks, it's all somebody elses fault, waaaaa!"
But it's like Beechbum said on the other 'thread which will not die' - this guy has his point of view, and he'll stick to it, no matter what. Don't bother with reasoning, it's been tried.
He won't respond with anything resembling a logical argument, or with solutions to his perceived problems, other than "There should be more black pilots, make it happen for free and right away, it's only racism when whites discriminate against blacks, it's all somebody elses fault, waaaaa!"
Beechbum, I remember the days when people said that Mugabe would look after the commercial farmers, "He's not going to kill the golden goose, he's realistic." Yeah right.
If determined to stay in Africa make sure you have foreign investments to live on and an escape plan just in case.
Sure S.A. may not go down as fast as Zim, but look at the track record of the non pales when I comes to governing themselves; Somalia, Liberia, Haiti, Papua New Guinea, Sudan etc etc
If determined to stay in Africa make sure you have foreign investments to live on and an escape plan just in case.
Sure S.A. may not go down as fast as Zim, but look at the track record of the non pales when I comes to governing themselves; Somalia, Liberia, Haiti, Papua New Guinea, Sudan etc etc
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I think metro man has got it right, get what time you can and keep your options open elsewhere so you can bail at any time if you have/want to.
I have flown with the cadets and there is a huge difference in those that really want to be there and those you say "eish , its a job". You'll be surprised as to how many dont make it and end up in office jobs. Or decide after their first bad weather experience, this is not for me, and just stop flying!
What a waste of money! SAA selection process is obviously bias and distorted for these positions.But its ok, its tax payers cash not theirs so phew!
My other gripe is that im sure the public dont pay SAA's heavy ticket price to be test subjects to a cadet throwing them around the sky and bounching them off the ground on landing.
Do you really want to work for an airline that will bypass you at command time and let the BEE fellow with a third of your experience sit in the left and call the shots?.....ummmmm...pass thank you.
I have flown with the cadets and there is a huge difference in those that really want to be there and those you say "eish , its a job". You'll be surprised as to how many dont make it and end up in office jobs. Or decide after their first bad weather experience, this is not for me, and just stop flying!
What a waste of money! SAA selection process is obviously bias and distorted for these positions.But its ok, its tax payers cash not theirs so phew!
My other gripe is that im sure the public dont pay SAA's heavy ticket price to be test subjects to a cadet throwing them around the sky and bounching them off the ground on landing.
Do you really want to work for an airline that will bypass you at command time and let the BEE fellow with a third of your experience sit in the left and call the shots?.....ummmmm...pass thank you.
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Thanks guys, it's been interesting reading all the replies. I am still quite amazed at Mr Afri - what worries me is that he seems quite well educated and his use of the English language is above average, but yet his argument indicates bigger blinkers than any race horse that I've ever seen!
I thought I was being fairly diplomatic in my first post. Mr Afri, I wish you would divulge how you managed to labour through your arduous journey to your present position - I can tell you that I (and a lot of other guys) have gone through immense sacrifice to achieve my dreams. This involves being away from my family for very long periods of time, and sometimes in very dangerous places.
How do you belive that your little Utopia can be achieved? (Sorry, but this reference to "pale" and "non-pale" makes me think that some of us are sick or something!) I am starting to believe that people with the like-mindedness of Mr Afri genuinely want the white population to emigrate from OUR COUNTRY! And as you can see by some of the replies from SA guys working abroad, it is happening!
Getting back to my original point - OUR national carrier is in a difficult situation. They need crew! The supply of suitably qualified black pilots has been exhausted. Yet they are still being prevented from hiring experienced white South Africans. Would you prefer to see non-South Africans fulfill the necessary slots, in order to obtain your colour quota? Nigerians etc?
Phew, this guy worries me! Maybe the okes who have left have got it right - there's no "Rainbow Nation" - just BLACK SUPREMACY!!
Sorry, Mr Afri, but you are a racist. It works both ways. As I said in my previous post - we can either treat each other as a resource, and build this country into a great nation by example, or give hand-outs like Uncle Bob next door. We all know how well that works!
Look, I'm just one of those suckers shouting for my flag and my country, and trying to make a living.
I thought I was being fairly diplomatic in my first post. Mr Afri, I wish you would divulge how you managed to labour through your arduous journey to your present position - I can tell you that I (and a lot of other guys) have gone through immense sacrifice to achieve my dreams. This involves being away from my family for very long periods of time, and sometimes in very dangerous places.
How do you belive that your little Utopia can be achieved? (Sorry, but this reference to "pale" and "non-pale" makes me think that some of us are sick or something!) I am starting to believe that people with the like-mindedness of Mr Afri genuinely want the white population to emigrate from OUR COUNTRY! And as you can see by some of the replies from SA guys working abroad, it is happening!
Getting back to my original point - OUR national carrier is in a difficult situation. They need crew! The supply of suitably qualified black pilots has been exhausted. Yet they are still being prevented from hiring experienced white South Africans. Would you prefer to see non-South Africans fulfill the necessary slots, in order to obtain your colour quota? Nigerians etc?
Phew, this guy worries me! Maybe the okes who have left have got it right - there's no "Rainbow Nation" - just BLACK SUPREMACY!!
Sorry, Mr Afri, but you are a racist. It works both ways. As I said in my previous post - we can either treat each other as a resource, and build this country into a great nation by example, or give hand-outs like Uncle Bob next door. We all know how well that works!
Look, I'm just one of those suckers shouting for my flag and my country, and trying to make a living.
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Redressing the imbalances of the past is not racism. Our country is heavily polarised with the pales occupying all the top jobs in the country and off course much so in Aviation.
I dont think the problem is redressing, its the manner in which its done. Your "Buds" seem to feel it can be done overnight........That aint gonna cut it.
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Originally Posted by Juliet-Echo
Would you prefer to see non-South Africans fulfill the necessary slots, in order to obtain your colour quota? Nigerians etc?
Oba, Nigeria has a reputation for corruption, along with fraud and drug trafficking. In the first world the mere mention of anything Nigerian rings alarm bells. Would you trust a letter of credit (supposedly) issued by a Nigerian bank for example ?
Bribery, or "dash" as you call it is ingrained in your culture to the extent were it is impossible to operate in Nigeria without it. This rightly raises the question of the integrity of your licencing system. How much for a peek at the ATPL exam papers ? To pass a flight test ? Even a complete licence issued on the strength of a forged foreign one.
And you wonder why Nigerian Airlines are banned from much of the worlds airspace.
I saw the transformation of Air Zimbabwe from an all white pilot group, to a mixed pilot group, to a now virtually all black pilot group.
Some of the issues worth mentioning were:
1. A group of black pilots (and one token white) were issued with ATPLs on the basis of a ministerial directive. They couldn't pass the exams which were based on the British system. Later on FAA ATPs became eligable for conversion so problem solved. Note the licencing officer T.W. a man of integrity resigned over this.
2. Senior training captain summoned to Prime Ministers office and accused of racism for not passing a black pilot as captain. Training captain sneekily failed an engine after take off and was treated to a close look at the control tower for his trouble.
This is the sort of thing SAA has to look foward to, if it's not happening already.
The Zimbabwe licence used to be highly regarded, and many pilots got jobs with Cathay, Australian Airlines, Singapore, Gulf Air etc .
With the large population base in Nigeria, there will obviously be some talented pilots in there. Provided he or she has a licence from a country were they can't be bought, such as Canada, New Zealand, UK etc, and is flying for an airline not under pressure to promote on race regardless of ability then I will happily fly with him/her.
Unfortunately blacks have shown themselves unable to successfully run a country, with one or two exceptions such as Botswana. Why does most of Nigeria's population live in poverty when it has vast oil wealth ? I am not a racist just a realist. In my new job I am going to be working for non whites (Singaporeans), now these people do impress me with their ability to run a country and an airline.
I used to live in Africa, saw the writing on the wall and got out thank God.
Bribery, or "dash" as you call it is ingrained in your culture to the extent were it is impossible to operate in Nigeria without it. This rightly raises the question of the integrity of your licencing system. How much for a peek at the ATPL exam papers ? To pass a flight test ? Even a complete licence issued on the strength of a forged foreign one.
And you wonder why Nigerian Airlines are banned from much of the worlds airspace.
I saw the transformation of Air Zimbabwe from an all white pilot group, to a mixed pilot group, to a now virtually all black pilot group.
Some of the issues worth mentioning were:
1. A group of black pilots (and one token white) were issued with ATPLs on the basis of a ministerial directive. They couldn't pass the exams which were based on the British system. Later on FAA ATPs became eligable for conversion so problem solved. Note the licencing officer T.W. a man of integrity resigned over this.
2. Senior training captain summoned to Prime Ministers office and accused of racism for not passing a black pilot as captain. Training captain sneekily failed an engine after take off and was treated to a close look at the control tower for his trouble.
This is the sort of thing SAA has to look foward to, if it's not happening already.
The Zimbabwe licence used to be highly regarded, and many pilots got jobs with Cathay, Australian Airlines, Singapore, Gulf Air etc .
With the large population base in Nigeria, there will obviously be some talented pilots in there. Provided he or she has a licence from a country were they can't be bought, such as Canada, New Zealand, UK etc, and is flying for an airline not under pressure to promote on race regardless of ability then I will happily fly with him/her.
Unfortunately blacks have shown themselves unable to successfully run a country, with one or two exceptions such as Botswana. Why does most of Nigeria's population live in poverty when it has vast oil wealth ? I am not a racist just a realist. In my new job I am going to be working for non whites (Singaporeans), now these people do impress me with their ability to run a country and an airline.
I used to live in Africa, saw the writing on the wall and got out thank God.
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Originally Posted by Metro man
Unfortunately blacks have shown themselves unable to successfully run a country, with one or two exceptions such as Botswana.
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I don't believe it has anything to do with skin colour. It's the culture of entitlement that is screwing the cat. Those at the top who have no fear of losing their positions due to the demographic are currying favour with folks who don't know any better to gain those votes. Alec Irwin is a prime example of spineless stupidity rampant.
It'll all end in tears....
It'll all end in tears....
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Well left to you, blacks should never rule any country. You guys in South Africa (wont like to generalise) will rather come and do it for us, wont you. Thank God this Apartheid thing was stop, its this damage the guys (SA government) are trying to put right. Am sure since your are convinced blacks are stupid, you will have been looking at conquering the whole of Africa by now. Then you will be able to fly their planes around, be worshiped by the blacks guys and be treated as God by the black guys (you ****).
I don’t see your point regarding credit cards and frauds on this thread. That is another issue entirely, which if we go into, then I will blame the guys that have fallen victims. Let me give you some explanation regarding this so called fraud. There is always someone who has come across some millions (illegally) that needs to be ferried across to some banks in Europe or somewhere. In some cases this is genuine and not in others. You get to hear about the cases that are not. I will say, why help transfer money from a poor nation outside the country, if you get scammed and complain, you should be thrown in Jail (Beheaded if I was the president)?
With regards to Nigerian licensing, then you are talking with your ass wide open on this one. For a start, Nigeria does not in itself issue ATPL (CPL, yes, after you have spent donkey years at Zaria). You go to a country like the UK, US, Canada or even SA, get your ATPL there, then it gets converted to a Nigerian ATPL. What ATPL exams are you talking about anyway.
Can you also please enlighten us on the airspace Nigerian airlines have been banned from operating. Bellview Airlines stills fly into London and India on Nigerian registered planes. Very soon, Virgin Nigeria will be de-registered and will be flying everywhere with Nigerian crew including the US (one the DOT agreements has been sorted out). Afri Air has the right to fly into Spain from Nigeria, and are in the process getting a A330 or B767 (to be Nigerian Registered) for this operation. ADC also has the right to fly into Brussels, again from Nigeria. What are you talking about men. Have you flown with Nigerian pilots ? They are everywhere, middle-east, SA, British Airways, KLM, Easyjet, Ryanair, Das etc.
I can not comment on Air Zim, but I hope one of the guys working over there can at least come up on this forum and say something. I know there will be two sides to the stories. I wont be surprise, if people with your ideas are the ones behind the downfall. If you believe you are African, why run away to Singapore, stay here in Africa and help change it.
With regards to Nigeria, being ridden with poverty, I cant dispute that, but it will change. The government is doing something about corruption, governors are arrested left / right and centre. Things are getting better, and we are here to put in our own quota. We will get there, Europe and America went through the same thing. We will survive.
Oba Idan Amani
I don’t see your point regarding credit cards and frauds on this thread. That is another issue entirely, which if we go into, then I will blame the guys that have fallen victims. Let me give you some explanation regarding this so called fraud. There is always someone who has come across some millions (illegally) that needs to be ferried across to some banks in Europe or somewhere. In some cases this is genuine and not in others. You get to hear about the cases that are not. I will say, why help transfer money from a poor nation outside the country, if you get scammed and complain, you should be thrown in Jail (Beheaded if I was the president)?
With regards to Nigerian licensing, then you are talking with your ass wide open on this one. For a start, Nigeria does not in itself issue ATPL (CPL, yes, after you have spent donkey years at Zaria). You go to a country like the UK, US, Canada or even SA, get your ATPL there, then it gets converted to a Nigerian ATPL. What ATPL exams are you talking about anyway.
Can you also please enlighten us on the airspace Nigerian airlines have been banned from operating. Bellview Airlines stills fly into London and India on Nigerian registered planes. Very soon, Virgin Nigeria will be de-registered and will be flying everywhere with Nigerian crew including the US (one the DOT agreements has been sorted out). Afri Air has the right to fly into Spain from Nigeria, and are in the process getting a A330 or B767 (to be Nigerian Registered) for this operation. ADC also has the right to fly into Brussels, again from Nigeria. What are you talking about men. Have you flown with Nigerian pilots ? They are everywhere, middle-east, SA, British Airways, KLM, Easyjet, Ryanair, Das etc.
I can not comment on Air Zim, but I hope one of the guys working over there can at least come up on this forum and say something. I know there will be two sides to the stories. I wont be surprise, if people with your ideas are the ones behind the downfall. If you believe you are African, why run away to Singapore, stay here in Africa and help change it.
With regards to Nigeria, being ridden with poverty, I cant dispute that, but it will change. The government is doing something about corruption, governors are arrested left / right and centre. Things are getting better, and we are here to put in our own quota. We will get there, Europe and America went through the same thing. We will survive.
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Well, for a start, I did not start the posting on both Threads, I opened the new thread so that we could deal with the Nigerian issue there. This thread should have nothing to do with Nigeria. What do mean by the crap. You guys make me sick.
Oba Idan Amani
Oba Idan Amani