Helicopter crash off Cape Point
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Aerodynamically speaking a R22 has no hope flying next to an Oryx, saying that no self respecting SAAF pilot will go close enough to a R22 to cause it to flip over. If, however you fly in CT regularly, you will be aware of the crazy winds we have here. This is certainly enough cause to flip an unsuspecting student in a R22. Most high time turbine helo drivers won’t even fly near Cape Point in these winds.
Peace to the families, they have my condolences.
Peace to the families, they have my condolences.
GunsssR4ever
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Again on the speculation side. The wind in the Helderberg has been pumping at 30-40 kts at my guestimate.
I hate to think what it could be at CapePoint today.
I hate to think what it could be at CapePoint today.
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Originally Posted by NoRunWayReq
Most high time turbine helo drivers won’t even fly near Cape Point in these winds.
Peace to the families, they have my condolences.
Peace to the families, they have my condolences.
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What a sad day.
Condolences to the family.
IF and I say, IF the reoprts are true that a solo student was navigating around Cape Point, then this is tantamount to culpable homicide on the part of the authorising Instructor.I've flown around there in a fixed wing, but would never consider it in a R22 under those conditions and with such little experience.
Condolences to the family.
IF and I say, IF the reoprts are true that a solo student was navigating around Cape Point, then this is tantamount to culpable homicide on the part of the authorising Instructor.I've flown around there in a fixed wing, but would never consider it in a R22 under those conditions and with such little experience.
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Jeeeezzzz guys, I have heard the same reports from other sources mentioning the Oryx forming then flying by then the crash......BUT I hope this is speculation and it was only a tragic "normal" accident....not that accidents are normal...
Samehere - if this offends anybody - please delete.
Condolences again to all involved
Samehere - if this offends anybody - please delete.
Condolences again to all involved
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Firstly condolences to all concerned.
This crash certainly raises some interesting points.
Firstly, if it was a "student cross country training flight" to quote a local radio station, does legislation not require a FPL to be filed for such a flight? As far as I can remember I thought you were compelled to file flight plans for ALL student cross country training flights - I know fixed wing pilots do, maybe I am wrong in the case of helicopters.
Secondly, and this is a general observation from a Clifton regular, who normally admires the lovely scenery at the beach (and my word there has been some quality recently), should not helicopters be fitted with flotation gear when they fly over water? I have noticed many helicopters flying around the Peninsula that do not seem to have such gear (visible) on them.
Thirdly, would it not be pertinent, in the case of a student on a training flight, when flying in such a wind prone area as Cape Point, to have a life jacket on hem, should they be forced to ditch their helicopter. The lack of suitable emergency landing areas, is well documented.
Were the student flying with one on today, have had a better chance of survival, if he had a life jacket on?
Comments?
This crash certainly raises some interesting points.
Firstly, if it was a "student cross country training flight" to quote a local radio station, does legislation not require a FPL to be filed for such a flight? As far as I can remember I thought you were compelled to file flight plans for ALL student cross country training flights - I know fixed wing pilots do, maybe I am wrong in the case of helicopters.
Secondly, and this is a general observation from a Clifton regular, who normally admires the lovely scenery at the beach (and my word there has been some quality recently), should not helicopters be fitted with flotation gear when they fly over water? I have noticed many helicopters flying around the Peninsula that do not seem to have such gear (visible) on them.
Thirdly, would it not be pertinent, in the case of a student on a training flight, when flying in such a wind prone area as Cape Point, to have a life jacket on hem, should they be forced to ditch their helicopter. The lack of suitable emergency landing areas, is well documented.
Were the student flying with one on today, have had a better chance of survival, if he had a life jacket on?
Comments?
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Well, if i'm flying over any large section of water, that i cannot glide to the beach from, then I will always carry a raft, and a lifejacket. Yes I know you will probably never have the time, etc to sort them out, but for that 1 percent chance of turning it into a survivable ditching, it well worth the effort.
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Very Sad Day. Condolences to the loved ones.
Reports mention the wind being 25kts westerly... Now, correct me if I am wrong but is it not standard procedure to stop all training at anything above 15kts??
Helicopters are allowed to fly along the peninsula without floats if they remain safe auto-rotative distance from land.But even if you are safe auto distance at Cape Point there is no suitable landing area.
For arguments sake,please edit if offensive, if the Oryx did cause any possible damage/cause to the accident, wouldnt the pilot mention anything to the investigators?
I think this will have major effects regarding the use of floats on all helicopters around the Peninsula
Reports mention the wind being 25kts westerly... Now, correct me if I am wrong but is it not standard procedure to stop all training at anything above 15kts??
Helicopters are allowed to fly along the peninsula without floats if they remain safe auto-rotative distance from land.But even if you are safe auto distance at Cape Point there is no suitable landing area.
For arguments sake,please edit if offensive, if the Oryx did cause any possible damage/cause to the accident, wouldnt the pilot mention anything to the investigators?
I think this will have major effects regarding the use of floats on all helicopters around the Peninsula
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I very much doubt that the Oryx pilot was doing formation flying with the R22.
An air force pilot knows the dangers involved in formation flying and I am sure he would not just pounce on the R22 and start to fly alongside it. Rules are rules and I would like to think the Oryx pilot knows the rules iro SAAF formation flights, esp unauthorised ones with civilian a/c. I think he just happened to be passing by and is now being (incorrectly on this chat group) blamed for the accident.
One must also take into cognisense the fact that the observer said it was a naval helicopter (!). Was he qualified in saying how far apart they were. I would treat his comments iro distances with serious doubt.
As you so correctly stated CoJam, there is no safe landing area near Cape Point, so the question still remains, what was a student doing there in the first place, esp if the heli did not have floatation gear on it?
An air force pilot knows the dangers involved in formation flying and I am sure he would not just pounce on the R22 and start to fly alongside it. Rules are rules and I would like to think the Oryx pilot knows the rules iro SAAF formation flights, esp unauthorised ones with civilian a/c. I think he just happened to be passing by and is now being (incorrectly on this chat group) blamed for the accident.
One must also take into cognisense the fact that the observer said it was a naval helicopter (!). Was he qualified in saying how far apart they were. I would treat his comments iro distances with serious doubt.
As you so correctly stated CoJam, there is no safe landing area near Cape Point, so the question still remains, what was a student doing there in the first place, esp if the heli did not have floatation gear on it?
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This is all speculation I know. Is it possible these helos weren't aware of each other and the R22 crossed his wake? How diligent are these SAAF crew in giving POSREPS & on the same frequency. In another part of the country I've seen them sail past without so much as a double-click. OK admitedly that was not the crowded peninsular, but it certainly surprised my crew.
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Ok just hang on now, i know i posed this question, but only because of curiosity about the aerodynamic influences two choppers would exert over each other. Thats why right in the beginning i acknowledged the usual silly reporting, however that just got me thinking.
If you guys want to continue this thread under another heading, just let me know.
If you guys want to continue this thread under another heading, just let me know.
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Search Still on for Pilot
Well this is a report from this morning ... so again very confusing reports re the body of the pilot ?
SABC NEWS
Search to resume for missing trainee pilot
January 18, 2006, 05:30
The search for the 44-year-old trainee pilot whose helicopter crashed into the sea off Cape Point yesterday is expected to resume this morning. It was suspended last night.
The National Sea Rescue Institute (NSRI) says police and navy divers have already discovered pieces of the wreckage. The pilot is believed to have been alone on board the 2-seater Robertson R22 helicopter.
The accident was witnessed by a South African navy rescue vessel which rushed to the scene, but the chopper had already disappeared below the surface of the water.
The NSRI, the police diving unit, and other rescue personnel have been involved in the search so far.
January 18, 2006, 05:30
The search for the 44-year-old trainee pilot whose helicopter crashed into the sea off Cape Point yesterday is expected to resume this morning. It was suspended last night.
The National Sea Rescue Institute (NSRI) says police and navy divers have already discovered pieces of the wreckage. The pilot is believed to have been alone on board the 2-seater Robertson R22 helicopter.
The accident was witnessed by a South African navy rescue vessel which rushed to the scene, but the chopper had already disappeared below the surface of the water.
The NSRI, the police diving unit, and other rescue personnel have been involved in the search so far.
SABC NEWS
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Well sadly here is the name of the deceased pilot. In Afrikaans but in shortit just says that Mr Erasmus was on his first "allenvlug" -directly translated first solo. But I pressume the reporter would not know too much about that.
Again roughly translated this report (not rumours) stated that a "Military heli" flew in front (both of them quite low) and that Mr Erasmus went down low as if he wanted to do aerobatic tricks. (As I say roughly directly translated).
Die Burger
Again roughly translated this report (not rumours) stated that a "Military heli" flew in front (both of them quite low) and that Mr Erasmus went down low as if he wanted to do aerobatic tricks. (As I say roughly directly translated).
Duikers sal vandag probeer om die lyk van ’n Kaapse sakeman en pa van twee seuns uit sy watergraf langs die Skiereilandse kus te haal nadat hy gister met ’n helikopter in die see neergestort het.
Die lyk van mnr. Marthinus Erasmus (40) van Plattekloof in die noordelike voorstede is vermoedelik nog verstrengel in die wrakstukke van die tweesitplek- Robinson R22-helikopter waarmee hy glo sy eerste alleenvlug onderneem het. Die uitgebreide soektog na sy lyk in die see naby Kaappunt, waaraan duikers van die polisie en vloot deelgeneem het, is gisteraand teen 20:00 ná meer as sewe uur laat vaar.
Die soektog sal vanoggend hervat word as die weer gunstig is, het mnr. Craig Lambinon, woordvoerder van die Nasionale Seereddingsinstituut (NSRI), gesê.
Erasmus se vrou, Hannelie, kuier na verneem word in die Vrystaat. Die egpaar se seuns is onderskeidelik twee en vier jaar oud.
Erasmus was volgens ’n kennis al geruime tyd ’n leerlingvlieënier en het gisteroggend die eerste alleenvlug onderneem. Hy was ’n gekwalifiseerde prokureur, maar het nie gepraktiseer nie.
Volgens mnr. Darren Zimmerman, NSRI-stasiebestuurder in Simonstad, het sowat tien mense gesien hoe die swart private helikopter omstreeks 10:15 in die see neerstort. Duikers het sowat 800 m van die kus na Erasmus se lyk en wrakstukke gesoek. ’n Proton-magnetometer, wat klein variasies in die aarde se magnetiese veld meet, is gebruik om na die wrakstukke te soek.
Volgens hom is nog net ’n helikoptersitplek en lêer met inligting oor ’n vliegtuig gevind. Hy kon geen inligting oor die oorsaak van die ongeluk gee nie.
’n Vriend van die vlieënier, wat anoniem wil bly, het by ’n uitkykpunt naby die ongelukstoneel bevestig sy vriend Erasmus was die vlieënier in die helikopter wat neergestort het. Hy wou niks meer sê nie.
Geskokte toeriste en personeel van die Tafelberg- Nasionale Park het vir etlike ure stip na die kalm see gekyk, wagtend op ’n teken of ’n liggaam wat gevind word.
Me. Helga Hill, wat die ongeluk gesien gebeur het terwyl sy en ’n groep in die park gestap het, het gesê “die hele voorval is onwerklik”.
“Dit was asof ek besig was om TV te kyk.”
Volgens die groep het twee helikopters redelik laag oor die water gevlieg. ’n Militêre helikopter het voor gevlieg, gevolg deur die Robinson R22.
Volgens me. Hilary Bryan, ’n stapper in die park, het die private helikopter skielik laer gevlieg, asof “die vlieënier akrobatiese toertjies” gaan doen.
“Dit het gelyk asof die helikopter se enjins gestop het en dit toe vertikaal met die neus in die see geduik het. Daarna was alles stil en verby.”
Volgens haar het die vlieënier(s) in die militêre helikopter verder gevlieg. Sy het die brandweer gebel.
Hill het gesê al waaraan sy nou kan dink, is die vlieënier se arme familie.
Volgens mnr. Luthando Mase, ’n bobbejaanmonitor in die park, het die helikopter twee keer in die lug gedraai en toe in die water geval. Net die waterringe was sigbaar, daarna niks.
Supt. Billy Jones, ’n polisiewoordvoerder, het gesê die vlieënier was vermoedelik die enigste aan boord die helikopter. Hy wou nie die vlieënier se naam bevestig nie.
Die lyk van mnr. Marthinus Erasmus (40) van Plattekloof in die noordelike voorstede is vermoedelik nog verstrengel in die wrakstukke van die tweesitplek- Robinson R22-helikopter waarmee hy glo sy eerste alleenvlug onderneem het. Die uitgebreide soektog na sy lyk in die see naby Kaappunt, waaraan duikers van die polisie en vloot deelgeneem het, is gisteraand teen 20:00 ná meer as sewe uur laat vaar.
Die soektog sal vanoggend hervat word as die weer gunstig is, het mnr. Craig Lambinon, woordvoerder van die Nasionale Seereddingsinstituut (NSRI), gesê.
Erasmus se vrou, Hannelie, kuier na verneem word in die Vrystaat. Die egpaar se seuns is onderskeidelik twee en vier jaar oud.
Erasmus was volgens ’n kennis al geruime tyd ’n leerlingvlieënier en het gisteroggend die eerste alleenvlug onderneem. Hy was ’n gekwalifiseerde prokureur, maar het nie gepraktiseer nie.
Volgens mnr. Darren Zimmerman, NSRI-stasiebestuurder in Simonstad, het sowat tien mense gesien hoe die swart private helikopter omstreeks 10:15 in die see neerstort. Duikers het sowat 800 m van die kus na Erasmus se lyk en wrakstukke gesoek. ’n Proton-magnetometer, wat klein variasies in die aarde se magnetiese veld meet, is gebruik om na die wrakstukke te soek.
Volgens hom is nog net ’n helikoptersitplek en lêer met inligting oor ’n vliegtuig gevind. Hy kon geen inligting oor die oorsaak van die ongeluk gee nie.
’n Vriend van die vlieënier, wat anoniem wil bly, het by ’n uitkykpunt naby die ongelukstoneel bevestig sy vriend Erasmus was die vlieënier in die helikopter wat neergestort het. Hy wou niks meer sê nie.
Geskokte toeriste en personeel van die Tafelberg- Nasionale Park het vir etlike ure stip na die kalm see gekyk, wagtend op ’n teken of ’n liggaam wat gevind word.
Me. Helga Hill, wat die ongeluk gesien gebeur het terwyl sy en ’n groep in die park gestap het, het gesê “die hele voorval is onwerklik”.
“Dit was asof ek besig was om TV te kyk.”
Volgens die groep het twee helikopters redelik laag oor die water gevlieg. ’n Militêre helikopter het voor gevlieg, gevolg deur die Robinson R22.
Volgens me. Hilary Bryan, ’n stapper in die park, het die private helikopter skielik laer gevlieg, asof “die vlieënier akrobatiese toertjies” gaan doen.
“Dit het gelyk asof die helikopter se enjins gestop het en dit toe vertikaal met die neus in die see geduik het. Daarna was alles stil en verby.”
Volgens haar het die vlieënier(s) in die militêre helikopter verder gevlieg. Sy het die brandweer gebel.
Hill het gesê al waaraan sy nou kan dink, is die vlieënier se arme familie.
Volgens mnr. Luthando Mase, ’n bobbejaanmonitor in die park, het die helikopter twee keer in die lug gedraai en toe in die water geval. Net die waterringe was sigbaar, daarna niks.
Supt. Billy Jones, ’n polisiewoordvoerder, het gesê die vlieënier was vermoedelik die enigste aan boord die helikopter. Hy wou nie die vlieënier se naam bevestig nie.
Die Burger
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Copter: Divers to recover body
The english version :
News 24
Copter: Divers to recover body
18/01/2006 07:23 - (SA)
Malani Venter , Die Burger
Cape Town - Divers will try on Wednesday to recover the body of a Cape businessman and father of two sons from his watery grave along the Peninsula coast after his helicopter crashed into the sea on Tuesday.
The body of Marthinus Erasmus, 40, of Plattekloof in the northern suburbs is presumably still entangled in the wreckage of the two-seater Robinson R22 helicopter, in which he was apparently taking his first solo flight.
The extensive search for his body in the sea near Cape Point, in which police and navy divers took part, was called off on Tuesday at 20:00 after more than seven hours.
The search would resume on Wednesday morning if the weather conditions were favourable, said National Sea Rescue Institute (NSRI) spokesperson Craig Lambinon.
Erasmus's wife Hannelie was apparently visiting in the Free State. The couple's sons are two and four years old.
An acquaintance said Erasmus had been a pupil pilot for a considerable time and was taking his first solo flight on Tuesday. He was a qualified attorney, but did not practice.
Tourists in shock
Simon's Town NSRI station manager Darren Zimmerman said about ten people had seen the black private helicopter crash into the sea at about 10:15. Divers searched for Erasmus's body and pieces of wreckage about 800m from the coast. A magnetometer, which measures small variances in the earth's magnetic field, was used to search for the pieces of wreckage.
He said so far only a helicopter seat and a file with information about a plane had been found. He could not give any information about the cause of the accident.
One of the pilot's friends, who wishes to remain anonymous, confirmed at a look-out point near the scene of the accident that his friend Erasmus was the pilot in the helicopter that had crashed. He refused to say anything more.
Shocked tourists and staff of the Table Mountain National Park stared fixedly at the calm sea for hours, waiting for a sign of a body being found.
Helga Hill, who saw the crash happening while she and a group were walking in the park, said ''the whole accident is unreal''.
Helicopter turned twice in the air
''It was as if I was watching TV.''
The group said two helicopters were flying fairly low over the water. A military helicopter flew in front, followed by the Robinson R22.
Hiker Hilary Bryan said the private helicopter suddenly flew lower, as if ''the pilot was going to do aerobatics''.
''It looked as if the helicopter's engines stopped and then it nose-dived vertically into the sea. Then everything was quiet and gone.''
She said the pilot(s) in the military helicopter flew on.
She phoned the fire brigade.
Hill said all she could think of now was the pilot's poor family.
Park baboon monitor Luthando Mase said the helicopter turned twice in the air and then fell into the sea. Only ripples on the surface of the water could be seen, then nothing.
Police spokesperson Superintendent Billy Jones said the pilot was presumably the only one on board the helicopter. He did not want to confirm the pilot's name.
18/01/2006 07:23 - (SA)
Malani Venter , Die Burger
Cape Town - Divers will try on Wednesday to recover the body of a Cape businessman and father of two sons from his watery grave along the Peninsula coast after his helicopter crashed into the sea on Tuesday.
The body of Marthinus Erasmus, 40, of Plattekloof in the northern suburbs is presumably still entangled in the wreckage of the two-seater Robinson R22 helicopter, in which he was apparently taking his first solo flight.
The extensive search for his body in the sea near Cape Point, in which police and navy divers took part, was called off on Tuesday at 20:00 after more than seven hours.
The search would resume on Wednesday morning if the weather conditions were favourable, said National Sea Rescue Institute (NSRI) spokesperson Craig Lambinon.
Erasmus's wife Hannelie was apparently visiting in the Free State. The couple's sons are two and four years old.
An acquaintance said Erasmus had been a pupil pilot for a considerable time and was taking his first solo flight on Tuesday. He was a qualified attorney, but did not practice.
Tourists in shock
Simon's Town NSRI station manager Darren Zimmerman said about ten people had seen the black private helicopter crash into the sea at about 10:15. Divers searched for Erasmus's body and pieces of wreckage about 800m from the coast. A magnetometer, which measures small variances in the earth's magnetic field, was used to search for the pieces of wreckage.
He said so far only a helicopter seat and a file with information about a plane had been found. He could not give any information about the cause of the accident.
One of the pilot's friends, who wishes to remain anonymous, confirmed at a look-out point near the scene of the accident that his friend Erasmus was the pilot in the helicopter that had crashed. He refused to say anything more.
Shocked tourists and staff of the Table Mountain National Park stared fixedly at the calm sea for hours, waiting for a sign of a body being found.
Helga Hill, who saw the crash happening while she and a group were walking in the park, said ''the whole accident is unreal''.
Helicopter turned twice in the air
''It was as if I was watching TV.''
The group said two helicopters were flying fairly low over the water. A military helicopter flew in front, followed by the Robinson R22.
Hiker Hilary Bryan said the private helicopter suddenly flew lower, as if ''the pilot was going to do aerobatics''.
''It looked as if the helicopter's engines stopped and then it nose-dived vertically into the sea. Then everything was quiet and gone.''
She said the pilot(s) in the military helicopter flew on.
She phoned the fire brigade.
Hill said all she could think of now was the pilot's poor family.
Park baboon monitor Luthando Mase said the helicopter turned twice in the air and then fell into the sea. Only ripples on the surface of the water could be seen, then nothing.
Police spokesperson Superintendent Billy Jones said the pilot was presumably the only one on board the helicopter. He did not want to confirm the pilot's name.
According to my info there were two R22's flying together (from the same school) lead guy doing radio work. He gets back to CTi and notices his mate is missing! SAR initiated thereafter after some delay and confusion. I assume therein lies the story of the military helicopter in front - Mrs public confusing her Oryx with her R22. I have to support the view that no Oryx driver would go near an R22 - so let's wind up this pointless speculation.
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Originally Posted by Bravedave
I have to support the view that no Oryx driver would go near an R22 - so let's wind up this pointless speculation.
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The smaller chopper suddenly flipped over twice and crashed into the sea.
Thinking about this point I am wondering whether VNE might have been exeeded which I believe has a negative aerodynamic effect in such that it can cause the aircraft to roll/flip.
Just a thought.
Thinking about this point I am wondering whether VNE might have been exeeded which I believe has a negative aerodynamic effect in such that it can cause the aircraft to roll/flip.
Just a thought.
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The R22 went down opposite Rooikrans and the Oryx was hovering at Buffels Bay +- 3Km away at the time. The Oryx did not respond to calls on 125,8. The R22 pitched foward and dived straight in.
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Very conflicting reports.
If the 22 were 3km away from the Oryx then why would witnesses say they(the R22 and "Naval" helicopter) were flying "close" together? Why dont the witnesses mention the other R22?Was it his first solo? If it was, why go the Cape Point route????!!!!!
Damn this is confusing!
If the 22 were 3km away from the Oryx then why would witnesses say they(the R22 and "Naval" helicopter) were flying "close" together? Why dont the witnesses mention the other R22?Was it his first solo? If it was, why go the Cape Point route????!!!!!
Damn this is confusing!
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Search for pilot continues 2006-01-18 13:48:00http://www.news24.com/Images/Photos/20060118130137diver.jpg
Police and navy divers are still combing the area off Cape Point for the body of a trainee pilot who plunged to his death in a helicopter crash. Cape Town - Police and navy divers were still combing the area off Cape Point on Wednesday afternoon for the body of a trainee pilot who plunged to his death in a helicopter crash.
The man, whom Die Burger identified as Cape Town father-of-two Marthinus Erasmus, was flying alone around 10.30 on Tuesday when witnesses saw his Robinson R22 helicopter crash into the sea.
Police spokesperson Superintendent Billy Jones did not want to confirm the identity in the absence of the body and positive identification by a family member.
Police and navy divers are still combing the area off Cape Point for the body of a trainee pilot who plunged to his death in a helicopter crash. Cape Town - Police and navy divers were still combing the area off Cape Point on Wednesday afternoon for the body of a trainee pilot who plunged to his death in a helicopter crash.
The man, whom Die Burger identified as Cape Town father-of-two Marthinus Erasmus, was flying alone around 10.30 on Tuesday when witnesses saw his Robinson R22 helicopter crash into the sea.
Police spokesperson Superintendent Billy Jones did not want to confirm the identity in the absence of the body and positive identification by a family member.