Wasting time with Durban ATC
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ATC in this country is for sure top notch. Flown most of my time in and out of Europe and ATC there is a joke. If they can't handle the situation, they just stack you up in holds. Was even told to hold into Munich on a 001 callsign. Our boys here don't design them dumb*ss SID's and STAR's, it's them bureaucrats.
ATC is dong a damn good job here! By the way Ernie, again thanks for my DSTV, enjoying every minute of it!
ATC is dong a damn good job here! By the way Ernie, again thanks for my DSTV, enjoying every minute of it!
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I sentence anyone who has a problem with SA ATC's to two months continuous flying in the Roberts airspace in West Africa......frankly, I think our local ATC's are great, and I continually sense the competence and willingness to help when able. Thanks.
And hey, I like longer sectors, 15 mins extra on the DBN leg to eat my meal! I know its not the greatest idea though...
And hey, I like longer sectors, 15 mins extra on the DBN leg to eat my meal! I know its not the greatest idea though...
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bloodisgreen......do you actually control aircraft in our skies? With the way you have crucified the English language, I sure hope not.
Learn to spell and use the correct grammar and then we may take you seriously.
Anyway getting back to the topic at hand as Fluffyfan so rightly said........guys in Durbs......we know it's not your fault that we have to endure these horrendous arrivals but if you plan to take us off them and give us a shorter routing then tell us in advance!!! You have to realise that these chunks of metal are not easy to get out of the sky when there is no room to do it in. Maybe you guys sit there and have a good chuckle wondering whether or not we're going to get this beast down or not. "Ummm lets see if he can get out of this one?" as you guys throw the R20 on the counter!!!!!
Just remember prior planning gives a great performance......
Learn to spell and use the correct grammar and then we may take you seriously.
Anyway getting back to the topic at hand as Fluffyfan so rightly said........guys in Durbs......we know it's not your fault that we have to endure these horrendous arrivals but if you plan to take us off them and give us a shorter routing then tell us in advance!!! You have to realise that these chunks of metal are not easy to get out of the sky when there is no room to do it in. Maybe you guys sit there and have a good chuckle wondering whether or not we're going to get this beast down or not. "Ummm lets see if he can get out of this one?" as you guys throw the R20 on the counter!!!!!
Just remember prior planning gives a great performance......
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Quick question bloodisgreen......
what exactly do you mean with "don't bite the hand that feeds the mouth"?
I've always been under the impression that the atc is there for the pilots' convenience.....or do you believe it is the other way around?
what exactly do you mean with "don't bite the hand that feeds the mouth"?
I've always been under the impression that the atc is there for the pilots' convenience.....or do you believe it is the other way around?
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Puleeaze do not rise to the bait ATCO's - this guy is just trying to wind you up - the great majority of us drivers appreciate your presence and realize that some times we will not be Number One; we also see bureaucracy & realize that most of it comes from above.
This thread has the potential to widen or narrow the divide between our two professions; please avoid creating a conflict.
4HP
This thread has the potential to widen or narrow the divide between our two professions; please avoid creating a conflict.
4HP
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Maybe you guys sit there and have a good chuckle wondering whether or not we're going to get this beast down or not. "Ummm lets see if he can get out of this one?" as you guys throw the R20 on the counter!!!!!
I assure you (and I sincerely hope I speak for my colleagues), not once in my entire ATC career, have I deliberately (or not) held up an aircraft and then wondered if he can get down in time. It's ultimately a matter of safety putting a pilot and aircraft/pax into a pressure situation for no reason.
If an aircraft has it's flight path shortened (or lengthened), then it is good (read essential) practice to give the revised track miles to touchdown, and any ATCO should know it takes +/-3 track miles to get 1000' off, and at that rate, don't also ask the pilot to slow either. Sadly, I have seen some less than ideal situations develop due to lack of aircraft performance knowledge.
Guys & Gals - all you Pilots and ATC's - we are in this game for a common goal: Get everybody safely from A to B as fast as possible. We don't delay for kicks, but more due to the beaurocracy pushed into our system by His Highness (where ever you work in the world, he/she is present). We have to comply or we run into trouble.
Safe controlling, and safe flying
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beechbum beechbum beechbum, last time i remember spelling and grammar counting was in standard 5, are you still in standard 5 or was that the best comeback you could come up with? 4holer, would we ever take the bait for that rhetorical question?
ps quote from friday \"... how many trackmiles do you require? ... about 30.\"
all in all after 40nm ... asks for an orbit as he\'s too high. question - beechbum do you even know how many nm you need to land, how about trust us that we\'ll (most of us) will give you enough nm!
ps quote from friday \"... how many trackmiles do you require? ... about 30.\"
all in all after 40nm ... asks for an orbit as he\'s too high. question - beechbum do you even know how many nm you need to land, how about trust us that we\'ll (most of us) will give you enough nm!
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MoM mom MOM,what u doing posting on these forums as beechbum, enough about my spelling!!
Reptile,
What i mean is that we should be working together, its supposed too be a team effort!! Even though it looks like some of the pilots on this post seem to think there life would be alot easier without ATC'S
Reptile,
What i mean is that we should be working together, its supposed too be a team effort!! Even though it looks like some of the pilots on this post seem to think there life would be alot easier without ATC'S
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Hey boys.....a bit of tongue in cheek here. I know you all do a great job. And yes I do know how many miles I need to get the beast out of the sky!!!
Ummm standard five....I wish! Still trying to pass standard four. I'm sure I'll get there!!!!Just got to pass my maths test because I can't count!!! Damn but at least I can spell!
As for bloodisgreen....spelling lesson number one:
u = you
i = I
too = to
Here endeth the lesson!!!!!!!
Oh by the way heard an aircraft being asked to contact Jo'burg radar on the phone after it landed yesterday.What sort of error do you have to make? Just curious here, no digs or anything like that, just find it interesting!!!!
Anyway gents and ladies carry on the good work that you do and don't let a little bit of tongue in cheek get in the way!!!I was only trying to reiterate what fluffyfan was trying to put forward!!!
Speak to you on the airwaves.
Ummm standard five....I wish! Still trying to pass standard four. I'm sure I'll get there!!!!Just got to pass my maths test because I can't count!!! Damn but at least I can spell!
As for bloodisgreen....spelling lesson number one:
u = you
i = I
too = to
Here endeth the lesson!!!!!!!
Oh by the way heard an aircraft being asked to contact Jo'burg radar on the phone after it landed yesterday.What sort of error do you have to make? Just curious here, no digs or anything like that, just find it interesting!!!!
Anyway gents and ladies carry on the good work that you do and don't let a little bit of tongue in cheek get in the way!!!I was only trying to reiterate what fluffyfan was trying to put forward!!!
Speak to you on the airwaves.
Last edited by beechbum; 12th Dec 2005 at 08:25.
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Oh by the way heard an aircraft being asked to contact Jo'burg radar on the phone after it landed yesterday.
Its all about safety!
PS. Hope my spelling is ok
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Interesting thread...
I'm an approach/radar controller at FAJS, and believe me, we get just as peeved with some of the procedures as well as some of our colleagues (including pilots) at FAJS.
There are a couple of factors which tend to cloud some of the issues:
- After some bad experiences, I try not to negatively criticise sectors I've never worked at, so I'm afraid Durban stuff is for Durban users. It's much more productive to write the people who can change things a letter asking for the explanation.
- With a lot of our local procedures being a bit odd, it then depends on the experience/balls/ignorance of the controller as to what service you get. This is probably the most important factor contributing to the lack of consistency in SA ATC. The tube drivers are generally better at this than we are since we are not really interested in the PIC, only the aircraft type, to predict performance. Not so with ATC I'm afraid, there is a big difference between the A team and B team when they work. I don't think it's best for the customer, but facts are facts.
Although rumour networks are great for disseminating information quickly, they are not very good for changing procedure. I would encourage every pilot who experiences both good and bad ATC to write to ATNS. Large amounts of official correspondence have been known to topple governments in the past.
I also think that when the procedures are not helping and one must take initiative, some plans are better that others and one can only hope to make more good plans than bad ones.
Lets hope only the A team in the future...
I'm an approach/radar controller at FAJS, and believe me, we get just as peeved with some of the procedures as well as some of our colleagues (including pilots) at FAJS.
There are a couple of factors which tend to cloud some of the issues:
- After some bad experiences, I try not to negatively criticise sectors I've never worked at, so I'm afraid Durban stuff is for Durban users. It's much more productive to write the people who can change things a letter asking for the explanation.
- With a lot of our local procedures being a bit odd, it then depends on the experience/balls/ignorance of the controller as to what service you get. This is probably the most important factor contributing to the lack of consistency in SA ATC. The tube drivers are generally better at this than we are since we are not really interested in the PIC, only the aircraft type, to predict performance. Not so with ATC I'm afraid, there is a big difference between the A team and B team when they work. I don't think it's best for the customer, but facts are facts.
Although rumour networks are great for disseminating information quickly, they are not very good for changing procedure. I would encourage every pilot who experiences both good and bad ATC to write to ATNS. Large amounts of official correspondence have been known to topple governments in the past.
I also think that when the procedures are not helping and one must take initiative, some plans are better that others and one can only hope to make more good plans than bad ones.
Lets hope only the A team in the future...
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Eltoroloco,
I appreciate your honest reply and value your honest opinion.
Thanks for posting!!!
Go the A-team....................................
I appreciate your honest reply and value your honest opinion.
Thanks for posting!!!
Go the A-team....................................
Last edited by beechbum; 12th Dec 2005 at 18:00.
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Agree on the A-team
Some guys/girls work there and some just have a natural talent. Its like that all over the world. Unfortunatly, some places have less of the A- and more of the B-team.
Some guys/girls work there and some just have a natural talent. Its like that all over the world. Unfortunatly, some places have less of the A- and more of the B-team.
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I often ask pilots to phone me - otherwise it gets bored at work and imagine how upset Moscow aka Head Office would get if I told a dirty joke on the radio.
You dont always think we are going to give the pilot a rocket do you ???????? well sometimes yes but then the phone call also be used to arrange drinks, golf tee off times, dirty jokes, skinner about the other airlines, hosties phone numbers, etc etc etc etc where any garages are that have got diesel and have a good laugh about ACSA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You dont always think we are going to give the pilot a rocket do you ???????? well sometimes yes but then the phone call also be used to arrange drinks, golf tee off times, dirty jokes, skinner about the other airlines, hosties phone numbers, etc etc etc etc where any garages are that have got diesel and have a good laugh about ACSA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Hello JHB dudes. Must say, I miss working with you guys.
Eish, I see some people were getting rather violent.
Dudes and Mrs Dudes; we need to get into the planes and you driver types need to come and play Nintendo with the ATC's. Unfortunately trying to get jump seat time where I am now is a non event! Nothing wrong with a bit of a brew and a good chin wag, but as the night gets more hazy, the "I can give you 160kts to 4 miles" becomes "I can give you 250kts to the gate inverted!" So much of the information and "ability" is a bit inflated after a few drinky-poo's. Same goes for the ATC's I do admit. Much is learned when we watch it done in the work place.
FAJS APP, you guys rock dudes. It was a pleasure working with you and hope to do it again some day. Just got to get all the sand out me rods first. Been a year already.
Make-a-pullup, you get the lightsabre? Thanks for the trading beans..... 
Eish, I see some people were getting rather violent.
Dudes and Mrs Dudes; we need to get into the planes and you driver types need to come and play Nintendo with the ATC's. Unfortunately trying to get jump seat time where I am now is a non event! Nothing wrong with a bit of a brew and a good chin wag, but as the night gets more hazy, the "I can give you 160kts to 4 miles" becomes "I can give you 250kts to the gate inverted!" So much of the information and "ability" is a bit inflated after a few drinky-poo's. Same goes for the ATC's I do admit. Much is learned when we watch it done in the work place.
FAJS APP, you guys rock dudes. It was a pleasure working with you and hope to do it again some day. Just got to get all the sand out me rods first. Been a year already.
Make-a-pullup, you get the lightsabre? Thanks for the trading beans.....
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Heard this from an ATC mate.....
Apparently if an aircraft does a go-around the radar/tower (cant remember who) controller gets suspended.
It this true? and if so are they suspended automatically regardless of who's fault it is (ie a SAA crew may have stroked the cat and not be approach stable at 1000 ft agl - which is an immediate go- around).............in this case its may not be the controllers fault ....are they still suspended....
Apparently if an aircraft does a go-around the radar/tower (cant remember who) controller gets suspended.
It this true? and if so are they suspended automatically regardless of who's fault it is (ie a SAA crew may have stroked the cat and not be approach stable at 1000 ft agl - which is an immediate go- around).............in this case its may not be the controllers fault ....are they still suspended....