R22 Down in Stanger
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Re: R22 Down in Stanger
"MAUW suggests in his post that a clutch light coming on and a flight into wires may have something to do with Starlight maintenance!"
Apologies if this was the impression given Organ Donor. Clearly flying into wires has nothing to do with maintenance, I was actually referring to the 3 accidents in September 2005, all of which were attributed to maintenance, but most specifically to the clutch light problem which had been an outstanding snag for sometime.
The issue is however, outstanding snag or not, why was a solo student not fully prepared on how to analyse, react and even having made the incorrect decision to enter an autorotation, not be able to execute.
"I would be more interested to see this thread being used to discuss why the accidents happened and how to prevent more in the future..."Further more, I fully agree with Organ Donor on this one.
IMHO, the quality of instuction must be questioned. Starlight used to have a reputation for excellent instruction until it's philosphy changed from one of quality to that of money driven quantity,feet through the door,sausage machine type instruction.
How can you have continuity when instructors are rotating on more lucrative far away contracts, leaving the poor students handed down to whomever is left behind.
Apologies if this was the impression given Organ Donor. Clearly flying into wires has nothing to do with maintenance, I was actually referring to the 3 accidents in September 2005, all of which were attributed to maintenance, but most specifically to the clutch light problem which had been an outstanding snag for sometime.
The issue is however, outstanding snag or not, why was a solo student not fully prepared on how to analyse, react and even having made the incorrect decision to enter an autorotation, not be able to execute.
"I would be more interested to see this thread being used to discuss why the accidents happened and how to prevent more in the future..."Further more, I fully agree with Organ Donor on this one.
IMHO, the quality of instuction must be questioned. Starlight used to have a reputation for excellent instruction until it's philosphy changed from one of quality to that of money driven quantity,feet through the door,sausage machine type instruction.
How can you have continuity when instructors are rotating on more lucrative far away contracts, leaving the poor students handed down to whomever is left behind.
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Re: R22 Down in Stanger
Referring to Guns post on First Black female copper,chopper pilot, Congrats to the young lady.I too had the pleasure of meeting her when I was in Durbs in October 2005. A smart and articulate individual who had resolved to overlook the politically incorrect attitude of some Saffers at the training school and the non-commital attitude of management at the training school to resolve these issues. No wonder she is not able to talk about the challenges.
Clearly there is no problem with the selection of the students.
Intersesting that the article appeared in the newspaper just one day after the last accident........co-incidence? Or a marketing division at Starlight working overtime?
Clearly there is no problem with the selection of the students.
Intersesting that the article appeared in the newspaper just one day after the last accident........co-incidence? Or a marketing division at Starlight working overtime?
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Re: R22 Down in Stanger
Believe The CEO of Starlite resigned his position,to enable him to consentrate on his very lucrative Puma business (Pakistan & Sudan ) The new man in the HOT seat is Barry Duff
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Re: R22 Down in Stanger
Originally Posted by Jared
glimmerman_alpha
Once again, you begin your postings on this thread by imparting a blow to Starlite Aviation by the use of the word “either,” now squeal as you unconvincingly perform a u-turn, that it is not Starlite Aviation in Durban that you have a problem with, again claiming the oracle of insider knowledge, but, Starlite in Cape Town who are “relocating.” You are way out of order with your spineless accusations followed by scurrying behind “glimmerman_alpha,” and “RUMOUR Network,” as your defence. Jared.
Once again, you begin your postings on this thread by imparting a blow to Starlite Aviation by the use of the word “either,” now squeal as you unconvincingly perform a u-turn, that it is not Starlite Aviation in Durban that you have a problem with, again claiming the oracle of insider knowledge, but, Starlite in Cape Town who are “relocating.” You are way out of order with your spineless accusations followed by scurrying behind “glimmerman_alpha,” and “RUMOUR Network,” as your defence. Jared.
"Your claim that you do not have a problem with Starlite sounds like so much whining in light of your previous initiation of a thread on this network where you incorrectly assert that a Starlite student crossed a runway without clearance."
I relayed info which was given to me by a pilot who was in the in the circuit at the time.It was then stated by another PPruner on the thread that it was a Base 4 student. problem solved.
Can we get back to the original topic of the accident and cause.
Good luck to the new CEO.....
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Re: R22 Down in Stanger
I have been following this thread with great interest.
Once a credible company, now weakend by greed and infalibility.
Thomas doing justice to his slippery nature, slipping the surly bonds of responsibility and handing them over to the fall guy, who doesnt deserve to have been left with the mop to clean up.
And what a mess he has to make good in the eyes of the local aviation community.
Once a credible company, now weakend by greed and infalibility.
Thomas doing justice to his slippery nature, slipping the surly bonds of responsibility and handing them over to the fall guy, who doesnt deserve to have been left with the mop to clean up.
And what a mess he has to make good in the eyes of the local aviation community.
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Re: R22 Down in Stanger
MAUW,
Apology accepted, and I agree with most of what you have to say. Although I don’t know the details of the accident, I agree that a solo student should be able to manage a clutch light illumination in a somewhat better way than this guy did. While I believe that if an instructor fails to teach even the basic stuff like what to do if a light comes on he should be beaten repeatedly over the head I also know that students are capable of the most bizarre actions in given situations. This accident could be due to bad instructing just as much as it could be due to a panicked student. Perhaps this will serve as a reminder to instructors to make sure everything is taught correctly.
As far as his not being able to execute an autorotative landing it seems to be policy in SA (and please correct me if I am wrong) not to train students to perform full EOL’s, so it comes as no surprise that he dinged it. (it was, presumably, his first one after all). A flare recovery is a very different thing to an engine off.
Apology accepted, and I agree with most of what you have to say. Although I don’t know the details of the accident, I agree that a solo student should be able to manage a clutch light illumination in a somewhat better way than this guy did. While I believe that if an instructor fails to teach even the basic stuff like what to do if a light comes on he should be beaten repeatedly over the head I also know that students are capable of the most bizarre actions in given situations. This accident could be due to bad instructing just as much as it could be due to a panicked student. Perhaps this will serve as a reminder to instructors to make sure everything is taught correctly.
As far as his not being able to execute an autorotative landing it seems to be policy in SA (and please correct me if I am wrong) not to train students to perform full EOL’s, so it comes as no surprise that he dinged it. (it was, presumably, his first one after all). A flare recovery is a very different thing to an engine off.
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Re: R22 Down in Stanger
To flare or not to flare.....is this the question? A flare is mandatory, not optional whether practice autos or full EOL's are being executed. I remember having this and the flare height drilled into me as a student.And i quote from the Robinson manual:
Practice autos-Power recovery: "At about 40 feet AGL, begin cyclic fare to reduce rate of descent and forward speed"
Practice autos-with ground contact: "perform in same manner.....Therefore a well timed cyclic flare is required....."
Frank Robinson himself recomends EOL's only for demonstration purposes, which is why they are demonstrated by the instructor and not practiced by the student, so I don't think that this is a SA thing at all.
Further more it states in the Robinson Safety Notice SN-28 that "if a clutch light illuminates in flight for longer than usual, pull the circuit breaker and make a normal power on landing.Be prepared to enter autorotation should failure of the drive system occur."
Ronison SN-16 deliberates the fact that POWER LINES ARE DEADLY.
And so the question remains, do they even read their POH's and what are these students being taught?
Practice autos-Power recovery: "At about 40 feet AGL, begin cyclic fare to reduce rate of descent and forward speed"
Practice autos-with ground contact: "perform in same manner.....Therefore a well timed cyclic flare is required....."
Frank Robinson himself recomends EOL's only for demonstration purposes, which is why they are demonstrated by the instructor and not practiced by the student, so I don't think that this is a SA thing at all.
Further more it states in the Robinson Safety Notice SN-28 that "if a clutch light illuminates in flight for longer than usual, pull the circuit breaker and make a normal power on landing.Be prepared to enter autorotation should failure of the drive system occur."
Ronison SN-16 deliberates the fact that POWER LINES ARE DEADLY.
And so the question remains, do they even read their POH's and what are these students being taught?
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Re: R22 Down in Stanger
We misunderstand each other. I presumed that the student did flare at the end of that auto and just screwed up the landing part. Did he lose his life? Surely poling it in without flaring would have that effect. My argument is power recovery at the flare is different from an EOL - different pedal inputs, decrease in tail rotor authority etc, not whether to flare or not.
Robinson safety notices are vital reads for students, they do after all, come out as a result of accidents. When I learnt to fly I can’t recall having to do a “solo low flying exercise”. Sounds like asking for trouble to me.
Robinson safety notices are vital reads for students, they do after all, come out as a result of accidents. When I learnt to fly I can’t recall having to do a “solo low flying exercise”. Sounds like asking for trouble to me.
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Re: R22 Down in Stanger
Heard from the mouth of a student.....
We are forced to fly with unserviceable machines, because maintenance cannot keep up and they do not have enough machines available....
Instructors change all the time and none are teaching the same standard/procedures...
Myburgh, the CFI, is never available or interested whenever we want to discuss any problems.....
The senior instructors, which are supposed to instruct us, are always away to fly Pumas somewhere making lots of money....
and so it went on and on and on!!!!
Gentleman, from the above, decide for yourself!!!!
We are forced to fly with unserviceable machines, because maintenance cannot keep up and they do not have enough machines available....
Instructors change all the time and none are teaching the same standard/procedures...
Myburgh, the CFI, is never available or interested whenever we want to discuss any problems.....
The senior instructors, which are supposed to instruct us, are always away to fly Pumas somewhere making lots of money....
and so it went on and on and on!!!!
Gentleman, from the above, decide for yourself!!!!
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Starlite Helicopter down at Cape Point
What a sad,sad day.
7 Accidents in 2 years at one company, and now finally a fatal one.
How many more lives must be lost before action is taken.
Condolences to all.
7 Accidents in 2 years at one company, and now finally a fatal one.
How many more lives must be lost before action is taken.
Condolences to all.
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Been watching this thread last week and now a fatal accident from the mentioned training school.
Once the emotions have settled I'm sure there will be rather hefty investigations at the school.
Sad Sad Sad Day
Once the emotions have settled I'm sure there will be rather hefty investigations at the school.
Sad Sad Sad Day
How many R22 down?
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Originally Posted by Ossewa
After reading all the posts, there is just one thing I would like to add... "Bravo 44, 4HP is the Moderator you D**s!!"
Good one Ossewaaaa
Originally Posted by LOAC
Myburgh, the CFI, is never available or interested whenever we want to discuss any problems.....
I should know he was my flight commander and still a very good friend. I find it very strange that he would not listen to you guys LOAC (when he is available of course) ?
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Originally Posted by LOAC
That was the old Air Force Myburgh, now it is a money driven/greed issue...... that dictates everything
mhhh ok - I pressume you now what you are talking about LOAC.
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LOAC, I am afraid I cant see ANY relationship between, the "money driven Myburgh" and the "slippery Thomas" in causing these accidents. Do you know the exact details of the "7" accidents? You obviously have inside gen. Please share!
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LOAC, It is easy to mention names and slander people on here when you are anon. Slade Thomas and Starlite have also done a lot of good for South African helicopter aviation. This is a rumour network not a mudslinging event. Even if you have issues with the aforementioned, it is an un-professional character flaw to bring out your dirty laundry on an Anon. forum. as well as blaming him for "handing over to a fall guy" WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING??
Do you think somebody would take a position like that against his will?
Grow up. If you have issues with the likes of Mr Thomas and his company, deal with them yourself and with him. Let CAA be the one that says he does this or that wrong after official investigations. SA aviation has to many people that slag each other off because they feel hard done by, and not enough people who support each other.
Do you think somebody would take a position like that against his will?
Grow up. If you have issues with the likes of Mr Thomas and his company, deal with them yourself and with him. Let CAA be the one that says he does this or that wrong after official investigations. SA aviation has to many people that slag each other off because they feel hard done by, and not enough people who support each other.
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Got to agree...
I have to agree with you B200dvr.
LOAC, your attitude is anti-social and counter-productive. To imply men like Thomas and others would deliberately have a hand in a students death is libellous.
The day you build a CAA accredited organisation with 40+ aircraft and GAINFULLY employ people, I invite you to pick up a stone. If aviation were left with similar views, we would still be sucking our thumbs.
Or, until you're prepared to come out from under your pseudonym, wind your neck in and back off on name-calling. It belongs in kindergarten.
HP.
LOAC, your attitude is anti-social and counter-productive. To imply men like Thomas and others would deliberately have a hand in a students death is libellous.
The day you build a CAA accredited organisation with 40+ aircraft and GAINFULLY employ people, I invite you to pick up a stone. If aviation were left with similar views, we would still be sucking our thumbs.
Or, until you're prepared to come out from under your pseudonym, wind your neck in and back off on name-calling. It belongs in kindergarten.
HP.