Nationwide Engine Out
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: N.E.W.S.
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Relax...
According to a SCAA inspector, Mr. P. Leesdontpaneec, SCAA will introduce new measures to ensure passenger comfort after the latest engine shutdown on Nationpride Airelynes:
He was quoted as saying:
He continued by saying that SCAA were investigating the incident and will convene, at the taxpayers expense, an enquiry to prevent a repetition of the incident. He continued by saying that this will be done to prevent unbiased media reporting and to possibly prevent passenger anxiety and PTSD (post-traumatic stress disorder) on local domestic flights, due to turbulence, precautionary engine shutdowns and calm and non apologetic aircrew during and after emergencies”.
The following recommendations have already been suggested by SCAA:
1. Issuing all captains with guns in case of emergency, i.e. precautionary engine shutdowns.
2. In addition to annual CRiMe and Dangerous Foods courses, a course in basic Crowd Control and Stress Management in confined spaces to be introduced into the curriculum for pilots and cabin crew. He suggested the navy be approached to investigate how they do this in submarines.
3. Introducing a new and revised checklist, including an in-flight briefing, to be done directly after a mandatory Mayday call, covering engine shutdowns to prevent panic among the passengers, cabin crew and ATMS alike.
4. This training will have to be conducted on a bi-annual basis at pilots cost or company cost.
SALPA had already lodged an objection, asking how you could trust an affirmative action pilot with a gun. They expressed their concerns saying that it would increase the risk of hijacking themselves by 50%, and were not able to say what could happen with female pilots and PMS.
They also mentioned that if the company should cover the cost of the additional training, that the cost will be offset against the passenger fares.
My suggestion to the captains out there in these airlines, in the not so perfect world, in case of having to do a precautionary engine shutdown:
Either say nothing at all, not even to ATMS and so avoid personal and company embarrassment and financial loss.
Or,
In accordance with the new proposed legislation, switch off the transponder, switch off the FDR and do the Mayday call and then switch off the radios.
Then make a desperate in-flight call, in your best and most panicked stricken voice, to the passengers, screaming and shouting in great Aire Agipt style, that you think everybody is going to die and that they should brace for the impact.
In this time of extreme danger, show leadership and courage under stress by leading the last prayers in all of the 11 official languages and Arabic, just for in case there isn’t a Goat and ask everyone to scribble a last note on note pads handed out by panicking, crying air hostesses. Also KINDLY ask the passengers to not sue the airline for all it is worth and to sign the "INCASE OF PRECAUTIONARY INFLIGHT ENGINE SHUTDOWN" indemnity form.
Then walk through the cabin, do basic crowd control and stress management by shooting those that are panicking, to wound only, with the issued and approved gun, while thinking that the money you spent on the bi-annual courses were really worth it.
Do all this while your affirmative action co-pilot, who failed his last checkride is flying badly and should have been doing this job, placing the passengers at even greater risk, without them even knowing. Continue even if you don't like to see and hear the whimpers of begging passengers, but full well knowing that AA's couldn't be trusted with either, the gun or the job.
Also shoot any passengers who has pulled out a cell phone to call their loved ones or the media, as the use of electronic equipment isn't allowed and they should have listened to the safety briefing.
Reasoning: If you are jeopardising their safety by flying on one engine then they are jeopardising the safety of the aircraft by using their cell phones. What's fair is fair and you have the gun.
Also shoot anyone who has got up to go to the toilet or get something from their bags in the overhead lockers while the seatbelt signs are on, due to the turbulence and buffeting caused by the max rate 1 turn at 20 degrees of bank on the return to the nearest diversion airport or leading newspaper or television station.
This will teach them that their safety comes first.
Then call your crew together, including the smuggling, arrogant ones. Now calmly brief the rest of the non bleeding passengers about what happened, in detail. Also use this time to let the cabin attendants with AIDS take care of the bleeding passengers.
Use your CRiMe skills, and offer your most sincere apology, on behalf of the company and aviation in general, for doing a precautionary engine shut down and causing them all such inconvenience. Then explain that you were only trying to prevent a major engine and wing fire, in which they probably all would have died in a ball of smoke and fire anyway, without even striking any major obstacles.
And then your last responsibility, according to the new SCAA and company regulations, offer anybody 2 free tickets with the “doomed airline” you’re flying for, a lifetime platinum membership and a eat as much as you like airline food voucher on all domestic and international flights, should they decide to go to the newspapers….(sic)
THIS IS A PARODY and please should not be taken seriously, as shouldn’t our “educated and non-educated” passengers reliving their “last moments” and neither the media presenting the sensational front page story.
He was quoted as saying:
“Eesh, All checkleests and companee procedures for engine shutdowns weell categoricallee be changed, appropriatelee for ALL de major aviation companies operating on domesteec routes in Efrica.”
The following recommendations have already been suggested by SCAA:
1. Issuing all captains with guns in case of emergency, i.e. precautionary engine shutdowns.
2. In addition to annual CRiMe and Dangerous Foods courses, a course in basic Crowd Control and Stress Management in confined spaces to be introduced into the curriculum for pilots and cabin crew. He suggested the navy be approached to investigate how they do this in submarines.
3. Introducing a new and revised checklist, including an in-flight briefing, to be done directly after a mandatory Mayday call, covering engine shutdowns to prevent panic among the passengers, cabin crew and ATMS alike.
4. This training will have to be conducted on a bi-annual basis at pilots cost or company cost.
SALPA had already lodged an objection, asking how you could trust an affirmative action pilot with a gun. They expressed their concerns saying that it would increase the risk of hijacking themselves by 50%, and were not able to say what could happen with female pilots and PMS.
They also mentioned that if the company should cover the cost of the additional training, that the cost will be offset against the passenger fares.
My suggestion to the captains out there in these airlines, in the not so perfect world, in case of having to do a precautionary engine shutdown:
Either say nothing at all, not even to ATMS and so avoid personal and company embarrassment and financial loss.
Or,
In accordance with the new proposed legislation, switch off the transponder, switch off the FDR and do the Mayday call and then switch off the radios.
Then make a desperate in-flight call, in your best and most panicked stricken voice, to the passengers, screaming and shouting in great Aire Agipt style, that you think everybody is going to die and that they should brace for the impact.
In this time of extreme danger, show leadership and courage under stress by leading the last prayers in all of the 11 official languages and Arabic, just for in case there isn’t a Goat and ask everyone to scribble a last note on note pads handed out by panicking, crying air hostesses. Also KINDLY ask the passengers to not sue the airline for all it is worth and to sign the "INCASE OF PRECAUTIONARY INFLIGHT ENGINE SHUTDOWN" indemnity form.
Then walk through the cabin, do basic crowd control and stress management by shooting those that are panicking, to wound only, with the issued and approved gun, while thinking that the money you spent on the bi-annual courses were really worth it.
Do all this while your affirmative action co-pilot, who failed his last checkride is flying badly and should have been doing this job, placing the passengers at even greater risk, without them even knowing. Continue even if you don't like to see and hear the whimpers of begging passengers, but full well knowing that AA's couldn't be trusted with either, the gun or the job.
Also shoot any passengers who has pulled out a cell phone to call their loved ones or the media, as the use of electronic equipment isn't allowed and they should have listened to the safety briefing.
Reasoning: If you are jeopardising their safety by flying on one engine then they are jeopardising the safety of the aircraft by using their cell phones. What's fair is fair and you have the gun.
Also shoot anyone who has got up to go to the toilet or get something from their bags in the overhead lockers while the seatbelt signs are on, due to the turbulence and buffeting caused by the max rate 1 turn at 20 degrees of bank on the return to the nearest diversion airport or leading newspaper or television station.
This will teach them that their safety comes first.
Then call your crew together, including the smuggling, arrogant ones. Now calmly brief the rest of the non bleeding passengers about what happened, in detail. Also use this time to let the cabin attendants with AIDS take care of the bleeding passengers.
Use your CRiMe skills, and offer your most sincere apology, on behalf of the company and aviation in general, for doing a precautionary engine shut down and causing them all such inconvenience. Then explain that you were only trying to prevent a major engine and wing fire, in which they probably all would have died in a ball of smoke and fire anyway, without even striking any major obstacles.
And then your last responsibility, according to the new SCAA and company regulations, offer anybody 2 free tickets with the “doomed airline” you’re flying for, a lifetime platinum membership and a eat as much as you like airline food voucher on all domestic and international flights, should they decide to go to the newspapers….(sic)
THIS IS A PARODY and please should not be taken seriously, as shouldn’t our “educated and non-educated” passengers reliving their “last moments” and neither the media presenting the sensational front page story.
Last edited by Miragepilote; 11th Sep 2005 at 17:31.
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with respect,Ou TREK DRONKIE ,one-engine-out procedures are a part of what we train so hard for...they are,in fact,anticipated by manufacturers (hence the fact that figures and data exist for this state)...and a plane such as the 732 is quite capable of single engine flight,particularly,as i believe was the case here,when the shutdown was precautionary,and not the result of fire or structural failure.
So its not blase to say their landing-a situation drilled for regularly that resulted in a perfect landing-was a nonevent.
And i'm only reporting what i heard,which was that the crew sounded very calm and in control in what is a very high workload situation i very congested airspace.
I sympathise with pax who are not a well informed and percieve a danger where there is none,but sensationalism like the type this gentleman in the newspaper is spreading is out of line...THERE WAS NO DANGER,therefore i see no reason why the capt should scare pax MORE by announcing an emergency.They should all pinch themselves...see...theyre all still alive!
So its not blase to say their landing-a situation drilled for regularly that resulted in a perfect landing-was a nonevent.
And i'm only reporting what i heard,which was that the crew sounded very calm and in control in what is a very high workload situation i very congested airspace.
I sympathise with pax who are not a well informed and percieve a danger where there is none,but sensationalism like the type this gentleman in the newspaper is spreading is out of line...THERE WAS NO DANGER,therefore i see no reason why the capt should scare pax MORE by announcing an emergency.They should all pinch themselves...see...theyre all still alive!
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Fluffy Fan,
I got a copy of the complete 1 Time and Comair SOP's and recurrent training programs. Very similar, CAA approved and both companies stick to their programmes religiously. Both do similar simulator recurrent training. Nothing wrong with that, as was proven with the recent engine failures !
I got a copy of the complete 1 Time and Comair SOP's and recurrent training programs. Very similar, CAA approved and both companies stick to their programmes religiously. Both do similar simulator recurrent training. Nothing wrong with that, as was proven with the recent engine failures !
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Oh Good this is where it gets fun
orgasmoron..................I am guessing you work for Nationwide (727) good for you............... Now I have a friend who is on the 737 fleet, and yes yearly simulator checks are done.....I did not say you are breaking any laws (although you and I know that you guys look the other way all the time), all I said is I have problems with your recurrent training..........At SAA, EVERY PILOT, has to pass a PREC every year and an SREC every year, every 6 months you are in the simulator, now that is what should happen at Nationwide and 1time, but it does not, because its expensive, maybe 1time should put that in there next "Tune you the Facts Advert".............I know its not in the rules, but most airlines who take training seriously do 6 monthly simulator checks...........But I guess you guys are better pilots hey...........
Solid Rust................OK.........get into an airline first then we will argue.....oh wait do we get the "poor taxpayer argument" again, boet I hope you are taking the telkom issue as seriously as the SAA one, they too are a leech on the SA tax payer.
Solid Rust................OK.........get into an airline first then we will argue.....oh wait do we get the "poor taxpayer argument" again, boet I hope you are taking the telkom issue as seriously as the SAA one, they too are a leech on the SA tax payer.
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Guys guys guys...
I respect all your points of view,but i think the issue at hand is not one of recurrent training or lack thereof-the crew DID land the a/c safely,with no damage/injury.That,i believe,says it all.The fact is,it was a 'routine' event we ALL train for,and they did it according to procedure and,by all accounts (aviationally speaking),they did it well.
I respect all your points of view,but i think the issue at hand is not one of recurrent training or lack thereof-the crew DID land the a/c safely,with no damage/injury.That,i believe,says it all.The fact is,it was a 'routine' event we ALL train for,and they did it according to procedure and,by all accounts (aviationally speaking),they did it well.
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Fluffy Flyer. Got it all wrong. Do not work for NTW. In fact never worked for a domestic airline in SA. However got good friends at NTW and 1Time. 1 Time does profficiency checks every 6 months, and sim every 2nd profficiency check. They also do tech refresher, AWOPS, Performance, Flight Planning and all the other required training annually. Remember, very few companies have sims in SA. In fact, 1 Time have a very progressive sim and recurrent training program. NTW does the training required and improves on standards every year. I agree that NTW could maybe do sim bi-annualy since the 737 sims are in SA. Would be much cheaper than to do every alternate prof check on the aircraft like 1 Time. I wonder if SAA was a private company and had to send all their crews to Europe or USA for sim, if they would still do it every 6 months?
Twotter is right, this is not about the training, the crew got it right both times! But why are you SAA oaks forever slanting the smaller guys or anything non-SAA for that matter? Also remember SAA is not a real airline. Real airlines have to make a profit, employ competent and experienced people in order to reduce training costs and still operate a safe airline. SAA, with all the training in the world also had a few mishaps that could have been prevented, like everbody else. Nobody is perfect.
A few retired SAA pilots fly at NTW. Lowering their standards, or is that not what you imply? I am sure they would not do that. So maybe NTW ok.
We all share the same airspace and all airlines have their own problems, but they deal with it. Passop for being so high and mighty, looking down on you collegues. Remember it is the companies that is in competetion, not the pilots!
Every crew that handles an emergency proficiently, should be given the credit. Do not have to dig into their comapnies policies and procedures.
Again, well done boys and girls.
Twotter is right, this is not about the training, the crew got it right both times! But why are you SAA oaks forever slanting the smaller guys or anything non-SAA for that matter? Also remember SAA is not a real airline. Real airlines have to make a profit, employ competent and experienced people in order to reduce training costs and still operate a safe airline. SAA, with all the training in the world also had a few mishaps that could have been prevented, like everbody else. Nobody is perfect.
A few retired SAA pilots fly at NTW. Lowering their standards, or is that not what you imply? I am sure they would not do that. So maybe NTW ok.
We all share the same airspace and all airlines have their own problems, but they deal with it. Passop for being so high and mighty, looking down on you collegues. Remember it is the companies that is in competetion, not the pilots!
Every crew that handles an emergency proficiently, should be given the credit. Do not have to dig into their comapnies policies and procedures.
Again, well done boys and girls.
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If you read Part 121.03.6 you will see that there is no doubt about having to do a recurrent training every six months.
I don't think it has changed but CAA considers the I/F renewal as a recurrent check and six months later you do the recurrent check as requied by the Part 121 regulations. Thus a check ride every six months.
Remember the I/F renewal is a licence requirement, recurrent training is a Part 121 requirement, that is if you are employed by a 121 operator. It is(was) the same for a 135 operator and not a very popular regulation at all!
I don't think it has changed but CAA considers the I/F renewal as a recurrent check and six months later you do the recurrent check as requied by the Part 121 regulations. Thus a check ride every six months.
Remember the I/F renewal is a licence requirement, recurrent training is a Part 121 requirement, that is if you are employed by a 121 operator. It is(was) the same for a 135 operator and not a very popular regulation at all!
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Ok well if thats the case I apologise, was not aware NW did that if so good to see...........however I suspect shortcuts are taken now and then (sorry had to add that last bit........just what I hear from very reliable sources, working on 200's there)
