Eurocopter vs Bell in Southern Africa
GunsssR4ever
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Eurocopter vs Bell in Southern Africa
Lo Gents,
Just a quick one as I am on my way to the airport : (Will reply in a day or three)
A friend has a range of one of the choppers (he wants to remain anonymous and types will give it away). I also do not want and sledging on this from my side.
He is not a happy man with the latest service he is getting from a said helicopter comapny and is thinking of changing his range.
As an owner / operator / pilot / engineer - what do you think of the two companies representation in South(ern) Africa on the following points :
[list=1][*]Sales[*]Service[*]After-Sales[*]Spares Back Up[*]Can they produce ?[*]General comments[/list=1]
Many thanks in advance for your time.
Gunsss
Just a quick one as I am on my way to the airport : (Will reply in a day or three)
A friend has a range of one of the choppers (he wants to remain anonymous and types will give it away). I also do not want and sledging on this from my side.
He is not a happy man with the latest service he is getting from a said helicopter comapny and is thinking of changing his range.
As an owner / operator / pilot / engineer - what do you think of the two companies representation in South(ern) Africa on the following points :
[list=1][*]Sales[*]Service[*]After-Sales[*]Spares Back Up[*]Can they produce ?[*]General comments[/list=1]
Many thanks in advance for your time.
Gunsss
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Gunns this could become very interesting.
I think it is important to look at the available product range to add perspective to a survey like the one you are suggesting.
Bell have always been renowned for the product support and continue to do so. Eurocopter are recovering from a period of disgracefully bad management and probably deserve?! some slack. Eurocopter has, for the first time in South Africa, a person that originates from Customer Support within the mother company and understands "The customer comes first" concept.
In the short time since his appointment the beginning of 2005, I have expierenced at least an attempt to rectify an long overdue improvement between the manufacturer and client.
The problem with product between the two is the fact that EC has gone on a massive product enhacement phase which saw a number of new and innovative gimmics come into play with in their product range.
I dare anybody in the industry to underplay the effect of noisepollution in modifying public opinion about the acceptability of helicopters over urban areas or conservation areas. Ask the CT sightseeing crowd. The lack of new products from Bell has left them a long way behind. This does not mean they are not giving good support through ample spares avaialability for an "ageing" fleet.
The downfall for EC in their good sales of new machines, has been the lack of spares avaialable for all the new technology.There are simply not enough spares in a float to look after these machines. But in all fairness Bell has enjoyed a long run of turning out old technolgy in long paid for jigs and got left behind.
So would I change from EC to Bell if the customer support and product support is lacking? No, for the simple reason that EC has made a serious attempt in producing technologically superior machines that bring a lot of passenger safety, comfort and public acceptability into play. I am not referring to the offshore and large helicopter market in making this statement. However the company need to get their act together and identify the type and number of critical components that has caused AOG situations.
The new management at EC knows exactly what needs to be done, and I believe it is happening. Would have to eat all this if it doesn't.
I think it is important to look at the available product range to add perspective to a survey like the one you are suggesting.
Bell have always been renowned for the product support and continue to do so. Eurocopter are recovering from a period of disgracefully bad management and probably deserve?! some slack. Eurocopter has, for the first time in South Africa, a person that originates from Customer Support within the mother company and understands "The customer comes first" concept.
In the short time since his appointment the beginning of 2005, I have expierenced at least an attempt to rectify an long overdue improvement between the manufacturer and client.
The problem with product between the two is the fact that EC has gone on a massive product enhacement phase which saw a number of new and innovative gimmics come into play with in their product range.
I dare anybody in the industry to underplay the effect of noisepollution in modifying public opinion about the acceptability of helicopters over urban areas or conservation areas. Ask the CT sightseeing crowd. The lack of new products from Bell has left them a long way behind. This does not mean they are not giving good support through ample spares avaialability for an "ageing" fleet.
The downfall for EC in their good sales of new machines, has been the lack of spares avaialable for all the new technology.There are simply not enough spares in a float to look after these machines. But in all fairness Bell has enjoyed a long run of turning out old technolgy in long paid for jigs and got left behind.
So would I change from EC to Bell if the customer support and product support is lacking? No, for the simple reason that EC has made a serious attempt in producing technologically superior machines that bring a lot of passenger safety, comfort and public acceptability into play. I am not referring to the offshore and large helicopter market in making this statement. However the company need to get their act together and identify the type and number of critical components that has caused AOG situations.
The new management at EC knows exactly what needs to be done, and I believe it is happening. Would have to eat all this if it doesn't.
GunsssR4ever
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A fantatstic reply.
I am sure I can admit now that he does operate an EC product and he has the same feelings as you.
He has been approached by Bell to change with some good deals but thinks he should "ride the problems out with them" as he said to me.
Many thanks once again.
Leaving the lovely shores of Cape Town in a few minutes.
Wireless Technology - wow at CT International
Cheers all and please keep the posts / PM's and Mails coming in - that's the PPRUNE Spirit
Tx again !
Gunsss
I am sure I can admit now that he does operate an EC product and he has the same feelings as you.
He has been approached by Bell to change with some good deals but thinks he should "ride the problems out with them" as he said to me.
Many thanks once again.
Leaving the lovely shores of Cape Town in a few minutes.
Wireless Technology - wow at CT International
Cheers all and please keep the posts / PM's and Mails coming in - that's the PPRUNE Spirit
Tx again !
Gunsss
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One has to look at the type of work that needs to be done, but if we focus our attention at especially single engine helicopters for the commercial industry, this is what I think out of a Pilot's point of view.
Definitely EC. They are such wonderful and comfortable machines to fly! Technologically superior! Passengers love them for their beautiful looks and passenger comfort as well as visibility. As for the people on the ground, they don’t complain about noise pollution when an EC (specially the 120) flies over, cause they can’t hear them!
Think it’s quite obvious that my choice is EC!
Definitely EC. They are such wonderful and comfortable machines to fly! Technologically superior! Passengers love them for their beautiful looks and passenger comfort as well as visibility. As for the people on the ground, they don’t complain about noise pollution when an EC (specially the 120) flies over, cause they can’t hear them!
Think it’s quite obvious that my choice is EC!
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I think that this is a wonderful topic. The original question was about sales, after sales service, and back-up with some comments. This differs from preferences on a passenger and pilot comfort and 'joy to fly.'
I know for a fact that Bell have enjoyed the number 1 position as far as customer support is concerned for some time. I do not think this is because their product is 'old' but rather because they have set up a world wide spares distribution facility that can and will get the spares on a flight within a 24-hour period. I do know that this not ALL spares but from a customer point of view, a helicopter down costs HUGE money, so if you feel that the customer support is getting to you to assist, that is worth a few extra sales per year.
EU have developed some excellent products that are all new and exciting however experience has shown that when you look at the predicted operating costs, these assume that you are operating right next to their French facility! So when you do have maintenance and the part/parts have to be shipped to and from the European factory, the freight charges and down time are substantially more than what you probably bargained for. Bell seem to have a faciltiy of someone not too far away that can help.
Having said all the above, Bell have been placing so much time and effort on the V-22 program of late that they have let other areas slip. Also being top of the pile leans that all the underlings are aiming for your position.
Like a good old King Air, I would still go the Bell route as machines in the air make money!
I know for a fact that Bell have enjoyed the number 1 position as far as customer support is concerned for some time. I do not think this is because their product is 'old' but rather because they have set up a world wide spares distribution facility that can and will get the spares on a flight within a 24-hour period. I do know that this not ALL spares but from a customer point of view, a helicopter down costs HUGE money, so if you feel that the customer support is getting to you to assist, that is worth a few extra sales per year.
EU have developed some excellent products that are all new and exciting however experience has shown that when you look at the predicted operating costs, these assume that you are operating right next to their French facility! So when you do have maintenance and the part/parts have to be shipped to and from the European factory, the freight charges and down time are substantially more than what you probably bargained for. Bell seem to have a faciltiy of someone not too far away that can help.
Having said all the above, Bell have been placing so much time and effort on the V-22 program of late that they have let other areas slip. Also being top of the pile leans that all the underlings are aiming for your position.
Like a good old King Air, I would still go the Bell route as machines in the air make money!
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Good topic Guns.
As an EC fanatic, I may be a bit biased.
The Bell is a reliable but old machine. Like an good ol' Toyota bakkie virrie plaas!
The EC is fairly new and not many people are used to new technology. Its going to take time but the guys at EC know whats what so it wont be long before they become market leaders.
As an EC fanatic, I may be a bit biased.
The Bell is a reliable but old machine. Like an good ol' Toyota bakkie virrie plaas!
The EC is fairly new and not many people are used to new technology. Its going to take time but the guys at EC know whats what so it wont be long before they become market leaders.
GunsssR4ever
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Tx Gents,
Yes if we can concentrate on EC120 /130's vs Bell camparitives - that will be great
Tx for the help so far gents
Cheers,
Gunss
Yes if we can concentrate on EC120 /130's vs Bell camparitives - that will be great
Tx for the help so far gents
Cheers,
Gunss
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Hi Guns. When the EC-120 was introduced it was going to take market share away from the Jetranger. It was going to be cheaper to purchase, operate and have greater performance. sadly this has not been the case!
The EC-120 is more expensive to purchase, has marginally higher DOC's, although as Life's Short-Fly fast has pointed out, once you have shipped components back to Eurocopter these figures are substantially higher with the inclusion of shipping costs. Bell parts are generally more accessable and cheaper to purchase.
I have not flown the EC but if you ask the guys who have flown the Ambo, they have stated they would rather be in a good old 206 if they have a confine with reasonably high temps. The Jetties performance is better!
The manual and manufacturers say one thing and the operators experience another. Conklin and De Decker give a fair and unbiased view. It supports what i have written above.
SC
The EC-120 is more expensive to purchase, has marginally higher DOC's, although as Life's Short-Fly fast has pointed out, once you have shipped components back to Eurocopter these figures are substantially higher with the inclusion of shipping costs. Bell parts are generally more accessable and cheaper to purchase.
I have not flown the EC but if you ask the guys who have flown the Ambo, they have stated they would rather be in a good old 206 if they have a confine with reasonably high temps. The Jetties performance is better!
The manual and manufacturers say one thing and the operators experience another. Conklin and De Decker give a fair and unbiased view. It supports what i have written above.
SC
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Operating in just this market in Africa and undeveloped Far East.
Eurocopter service diabolical - three months just to order a new Squirrel battery (not delivery, that's just to order) !
Also, good luck getting anything out of Turbomeca right now as they resupply the US coastguard with a new engine batch...
However Bell service just as bad, especially from NAC maintenance who are far more interested in Henley Air than their own customers, including it appears, their own charter division !
Sales - always good by both, NAC kiss arse like noone else but although Eurocopter promises sound good, delivery is lacking - still too French : 'you are lucky to 'ave our 'elicopter; you think we should be nice to you as well ? Va te faire...!'
Service - maintenance reliability eg. finished when it's supposed to be, and parts delivery better from Bell however blades are an issue and NAC screw up the system;
After-Sales - if they actually phone you back and try to help you, Eurocopter then rips you off and take months to deliver. We order direct from holders in US to avoid EC.
Spares Back Up - see above
Can they produce ? - DESPITE EC being terrible, we just switched over to almost all EC fleet on 120 (which I do NOT think is nice to fly - twitchy and uncomfortable, especially at speed), AS350s and will go larger shortly; replacing 407s which don't like sleeping outside.
General comments - If you had to buy your Toyota parts by mail order from the US, would you still buy a Toyota or accept an almost at good Nissan but maybe get let down in the future ?
We've gone Eurocopter despite rather than because of local support, after equally dodgy local support from Bell.
Eurocopter service diabolical - three months just to order a new Squirrel battery (not delivery, that's just to order) !
Also, good luck getting anything out of Turbomeca right now as they resupply the US coastguard with a new engine batch...
However Bell service just as bad, especially from NAC maintenance who are far more interested in Henley Air than their own customers, including it appears, their own charter division !
Sales - always good by both, NAC kiss arse like noone else but although Eurocopter promises sound good, delivery is lacking - still too French : 'you are lucky to 'ave our 'elicopter; you think we should be nice to you as well ? Va te faire...!'
Service - maintenance reliability eg. finished when it's supposed to be, and parts delivery better from Bell however blades are an issue and NAC screw up the system;
After-Sales - if they actually phone you back and try to help you, Eurocopter then rips you off and take months to deliver. We order direct from holders in US to avoid EC.
Spares Back Up - see above
Can they produce ? - DESPITE EC being terrible, we just switched over to almost all EC fleet on 120 (which I do NOT think is nice to fly - twitchy and uncomfortable, especially at speed), AS350s and will go larger shortly; replacing 407s which don't like sleeping outside.
General comments - If you had to buy your Toyota parts by mail order from the US, would you still buy a Toyota or accept an almost at good Nissan but maybe get let down in the future ?
We've gone Eurocopter despite rather than because of local support, after equally dodgy local support from Bell.
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Some very interesting and valid opinions!
Must say, from my perspectve the Jettie still outperforms the EC-120 (perhaps you can pull a little more red-line, where the EC will register a exceedance....
) but seriously, the EC does suffer from too little power at our high density altitudes. (And you can fix the Jettie with bloudraad & tang...)
Must say, from my perspectve the Jettie still outperforms the EC-120 (perhaps you can pull a little more red-line, where the EC will register a exceedance....
) but seriously, the EC does suffer from too little power at our high density altitudes. (And you can fix the Jettie with bloudraad & tang...)
GunsssR4ever
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Thansk SC. I mailed you and CE but sadly it bounced as I knew you will know a lot more on the Bell side of things.
What about the EC130 gents ? What I have seen / heard it is a great machine but .... ?
Tx a lot for the replies go-around and anvak
Much appreciated
What about the EC130 gents ? What I have seen / heard it is a great machine but .... ?
Tx a lot for the replies go-around and anvak
Much appreciated
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ANVAK: “perhaps you can pull a little more red-line, where the EC will register a exceedance”.
This is a classic example why I’m glad I fly EC. The VEMD will show me if the previous guy screwed it up!
The 120 is a great “pocket rocket”, but one must know how to “nurse” her as she is a little bit limited on the power. Still an excellent machine!
Gunss, the 130 is great! Full FADEC, lots of power, great machine to fly with all those nice electronic goodies! But the electronics can give you trouble sometimes… Overall I think it’s the King as far as single engine choppers go!
This is a classic example why I’m glad I fly EC. The VEMD will show me if the previous guy screwed it up!
The 120 is a great “pocket rocket”, but one must know how to “nurse” her as she is a little bit limited on the power. Still an excellent machine!
Gunss, the 130 is great! Full FADEC, lots of power, great machine to fly with all those nice electronic goodies! But the electronics can give you trouble sometimes… Overall I think it’s the King as far as single engine choppers go!
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Not right on the topic line, as usual but close.
Bell vs. Eurocopter is indeed a hot topic. I cannot speak regarding support in SA, but I have flown both mainly Bell for the last 35 years. Eurocopter for the last six so I have enough hours in both to talk as a Pilot. Heres a few thing from the other side of the pond that some may not be aware of.
I can say in the U.S. Bell has suffered from some serious Management problems, which they seem to have survived, possible due to manufacturing movements to Canada.
They seriously missed the boat with Law Enforcement there when all the surplus UH-1 (B204/B205) and OH-58 A, A+, C (B206B) airframes became surplus. They did everything in their power to have most of those aircraft destroyed by the military and many hundreds were. I could write many pages on battles I had with the Defense Department over the destruction of brand new, in the package Bell Parts that went by the torch. Yes, I can tell of UH-1s with no more than 500 hours on the airframe being crushed, it made me sick. I still suspect it was due to pressure by Bell on the Government. (Yes our elected officials also like to live well)
About that time Eurocopter made a big push in the U.S. and a lot of those agencies that had surplus Bell equipment and had major problems with Bell were looking for a better deal. Eurocopter kicked some serious butt and if you notice today a lot of the law Enforcement folks in the U.S. are flying Eurocopter.
Since I have retired, I fly a couple places doing tours every year for a few months. One place it is all Bell and the other its all Eurocopter. I can say that the A-star/Squirell has it all over the Bell Long Ranger for tourism. Same on Fires with the Bambi Bucket. They just seem to be more forgiving than Bell. Same scenario flying means you come close to max limits on Bell products.
B407another matter, that thing can move and stay well within limits, it seems to be Bells latest lifesaver.....I find it hard to get back in the Long Ranger after flying the B407.
Support in the U.S. does not seem to be a problem for either Manufacturer. If one has the money the parts always seem to be on the way. MD is the only one with serious problems and now some other group has purchased the company and says things should get better. It would be sad to see the 500 series at least, go away as its a fine confined area/sling machine.
Just some ramblings. Guns is used to it.........take it for what its worth. Back to the Grand Canyon soon and maybe into the EC-130. A lot of folks dont say its all that great, time will tell. I always say never fly an A model of anything..........
Bell vs. Eurocopter is indeed a hot topic. I cannot speak regarding support in SA, but I have flown both mainly Bell for the last 35 years. Eurocopter for the last six so I have enough hours in both to talk as a Pilot. Heres a few thing from the other side of the pond that some may not be aware of.
I can say in the U.S. Bell has suffered from some serious Management problems, which they seem to have survived, possible due to manufacturing movements to Canada.
They seriously missed the boat with Law Enforcement there when all the surplus UH-1 (B204/B205) and OH-58 A, A+, C (B206B) airframes became surplus. They did everything in their power to have most of those aircraft destroyed by the military and many hundreds were. I could write many pages on battles I had with the Defense Department over the destruction of brand new, in the package Bell Parts that went by the torch. Yes, I can tell of UH-1s with no more than 500 hours on the airframe being crushed, it made me sick. I still suspect it was due to pressure by Bell on the Government. (Yes our elected officials also like to live well)
About that time Eurocopter made a big push in the U.S. and a lot of those agencies that had surplus Bell equipment and had major problems with Bell were looking for a better deal. Eurocopter kicked some serious butt and if you notice today a lot of the law Enforcement folks in the U.S. are flying Eurocopter.
Since I have retired, I fly a couple places doing tours every year for a few months. One place it is all Bell and the other its all Eurocopter. I can say that the A-star/Squirell has it all over the Bell Long Ranger for tourism. Same on Fires with the Bambi Bucket. They just seem to be more forgiving than Bell. Same scenario flying means you come close to max limits on Bell products.
B407another matter, that thing can move and stay well within limits, it seems to be Bells latest lifesaver.....I find it hard to get back in the Long Ranger after flying the B407.
Support in the U.S. does not seem to be a problem for either Manufacturer. If one has the money the parts always seem to be on the way. MD is the only one with serious problems and now some other group has purchased the company and says things should get better. It would be sad to see the 500 series at least, go away as its a fine confined area/sling machine.
Just some ramblings. Guns is used to it.........take it for what its worth. Back to the Grand Canyon soon and maybe into the EC-130. A lot of folks dont say its all that great, time will tell. I always say never fly an A model of anything..........
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Mainrotor - on the button! I hope you noticed the smileys and the "but seriously folks".
The trick on machines without VEMD's is to have trend monitoring and know the other pilots flying the machine.
The trick on machines without VEMD's is to have trend monitoring and know the other pilots flying the machine.
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Eurocopter versus Bell
There really is not a comparison between the EC120/EC130 and the B407/B206 line as they are in more ways than one centuries apart. The Bell stuff is really fifties technology but still has a market sector that will take many years to die out purely because they are such reliable machines and the support base is exceptinally wide. Also, every mechanic and his uncle have got to know the Jettie so well that there can not possibly be a snag that is not known. However, the VEMD and FADEC in the Eurocopter stuff is really the best in the book.
Now for the support, call Bell and ask for an exchange on a rotor head, gearboxes or even minor instrumentation and then try the same trick at EC, even worse, try calling EC and ask for a conversion or check out on any of their products from EC130 to Alo 2 and you will get a run around second to none. Place the same call to Bell and you will get a positive answer for any Bell product in the country.
Unfortunately the EC stable has just emerged from a "Salesman" mentality and really only went for sales, albeit very successfully, and the support and training took a back seat, they are now in "mechanic' mode so one can expect the sales to suffer, training to be non existant and the workshops and maintenance to prosper. At least at Bell the team is complete with the Buzz running the training very well, the engine shop with Redman and the sales being done by the ex second hand motor car salesman. Now that is a good Yankee combo.
In the long run the EC products will no doubt remain tops but the good old Yankee customer service is difficult to beat.
Now for the support, call Bell and ask for an exchange on a rotor head, gearboxes or even minor instrumentation and then try the same trick at EC, even worse, try calling EC and ask for a conversion or check out on any of their products from EC130 to Alo 2 and you will get a run around second to none. Place the same call to Bell and you will get a positive answer for any Bell product in the country.
Unfortunately the EC stable has just emerged from a "Salesman" mentality and really only went for sales, albeit very successfully, and the support and training took a back seat, they are now in "mechanic' mode so one can expect the sales to suffer, training to be non existant and the workshops and maintenance to prosper. At least at Bell the team is complete with the Buzz running the training very well, the engine shop with Redman and the sales being done by the ex second hand motor car salesman. Now that is a good Yankee combo.
In the long run the EC products will no doubt remain tops but the good old Yankee customer service is difficult to beat.
