Cape Town helicopter ops
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Cape Town helicopter ops
Do any of the helicopter operators at Cape Town Intl. have CAA authority to land at their hangers, which is contradicts airlaw? I have seen some scary happenings around the general aviation area at Cape Town and do not think that it will be long untill somebody gets hurt !
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The pads at almost all the hangars are approved ( both CAA & ATNS/ Airports company)for use under control of ATC and are regularly used for training, tourism and rescue.
However I do recall a letter being sent out to operators requesting no takeoffs and landings over the fuel depot at ABC. Some operators choose to ignore this rule ( Agusta 119 is one example) The problem seems more to be cowboy pilots than the dangers of helicopter ops in confined busy space.
However I do recall a letter being sent out to operators requesting no takeoffs and landings over the fuel depot at ABC. Some operators choose to ignore this rule ( Agusta 119 is one example) The problem seems more to be cowboy pilots than the dangers of helicopter ops in confined busy space.
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I am glad to hear that the CAA has approved the operations, BUT........
Anybody that flies helicopters in the CTR will have heard the R/T : Land/take-off at own discretion, as clearance can only be given for a registered helipad that complies with the requirements ie: obstacle clearance, distance from fuel bays etc.
Also, not to chum the dark waters to much, are the threshold rwy34 and the FAD200 not the training areas in the Cape for helicopters ?
And lastly, before my hook becomes to heavy, ACSA = money. They would happily paint a 'pad' onto the runway, and declare it operationally sound !
Anybody that flies helicopters in the CTR will have heard the R/T : Land/take-off at own discretion, as clearance can only be given for a registered helipad that complies with the requirements ie: obstacle clearance, distance from fuel bays etc.
Also, not to chum the dark waters to much, are the threshold rwy34 and the FAD200 not the training areas in the Cape for helicopters ?
And lastly, before my hook becomes to heavy, ACSA = money. They would happily paint a 'pad' onto the runway, and declare it operationally sound !
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Indeed, what is the point of this post...?
I was down there two weeks ago doing some training on a squirrel and every time we called ATC for start,(several times a day ) they came back with "what is your aircraft type?" The machine lives at FACT
No-one expects ATC to remember the regs of all the aircraft there but maybe this has something to do with the charges levied for landing fees on all those "Unapproved" pads????
btw we did use the "approved" helicopter training area
I was down there two weeks ago doing some training on a squirrel and every time we called ATC for start,(several times a day ) they came back with "what is your aircraft type?" The machine lives at FACT
No-one expects ATC to remember the regs of all the aircraft there but maybe this has something to do with the charges levied for landing fees on all those "Unapproved" pads????
btw we did use the "approved" helicopter training area
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The reason of this post is that a lot of the helicopter polits are acting like cowboys, and are infact getting a little too big for their boots at Cape Town International.
The designated training area at FACT for helicopters is Thr 34. It was temporarily moved to Delta TWY by NOTAM action during the contruction of the new Bravo ramp and the closure of A1 TWY.
It is now back.
And one helicopter can train there at a time. If more are wanting to operate there, the FACT ATC's will have to supply the heli's the same service as the fixed wing VFR's in the CCT as that is what you are flying.
So when you get told you can't be accomodated, don't argue with the ATCs. It is unprofessional.
As for the remarks about the helipads, they are all suspiciously close to buildings and uncontrolled taxiways.
As you all no doubt know the Hotel taxiway is uncontrolled form the runway side of the sliding gate onwards. It is true indian country. See and be seen. The cars, busses, stairs, fuel trucks, C152's and my beloved Pa38's are all as see and be seen as is the occasional BBJ that taxies there.
The ATC's have no controll over what enters or operates on the taxiways there. They also don't have any controll over the helipads.
As TMATourGuide said, the RT they use is specifically LAND AT OWN DISCRETION or LIFT OFF OWN DISCRETION. There is no clearance to land or take off from the helipads. Coupled with the fact they only pass traffic information about KNOWN taxying aircraft, this can still lead to a whole mess of other vehicles and infact aircraft taxying around the taxiway that they aren't aware of.
Then you also get helicopters who do un expected things. I've seen the B109's landing on their own trailer, very very close to hotel taxiway near to Cape Aviation Business center. I've seen many Jetrangers, Long Rangers and even R22/44's lift off and then fly down Hotel taxiway. Obviously they are trying to get out of the "dead mans curve" but common. It doesn't matter what your airspeed or height is if you fly into another aircraft that you couldn't see.
I've seen helicoters lift off from the ABC hangar "helipad" facing south fly BACKWARDS into onto Hotel TWY and then turn west, to fly down Hotel westbound in ground effect, and only lift just short of the AMS hangers.
How is operating like this safe?
The ammount of increased helicopter traffic, as well as the increased VFR training traffic, the GA traffic and the wonderful idea ACSA had of making a ROAD cross Hotel has turned it into something of an accident waiting to happen and something needs to be done about it.
Is there anyone able to supply proof that the helipads are CAA approved?
KBK
The designated training area at FACT for helicopters is Thr 34. It was temporarily moved to Delta TWY by NOTAM action during the contruction of the new Bravo ramp and the closure of A1 TWY.
It is now back.
And one helicopter can train there at a time. If more are wanting to operate there, the FACT ATC's will have to supply the heli's the same service as the fixed wing VFR's in the CCT as that is what you are flying.
So when you get told you can't be accomodated, don't argue with the ATCs. It is unprofessional.
As for the remarks about the helipads, they are all suspiciously close to buildings and uncontrolled taxiways.
As you all no doubt know the Hotel taxiway is uncontrolled form the runway side of the sliding gate onwards. It is true indian country. See and be seen. The cars, busses, stairs, fuel trucks, C152's and my beloved Pa38's are all as see and be seen as is the occasional BBJ that taxies there.
The ATC's have no controll over what enters or operates on the taxiways there. They also don't have any controll over the helipads.
As TMATourGuide said, the RT they use is specifically LAND AT OWN DISCRETION or LIFT OFF OWN DISCRETION. There is no clearance to land or take off from the helipads. Coupled with the fact they only pass traffic information about KNOWN taxying aircraft, this can still lead to a whole mess of other vehicles and infact aircraft taxying around the taxiway that they aren't aware of.
Then you also get helicopters who do un expected things. I've seen the B109's landing on their own trailer, very very close to hotel taxiway near to Cape Aviation Business center. I've seen many Jetrangers, Long Rangers and even R22/44's lift off and then fly down Hotel taxiway. Obviously they are trying to get out of the "dead mans curve" but common. It doesn't matter what your airspeed or height is if you fly into another aircraft that you couldn't see.
I've seen helicoters lift off from the ABC hangar "helipad" facing south fly BACKWARDS into onto Hotel TWY and then turn west, to fly down Hotel westbound in ground effect, and only lift just short of the AMS hangers.
How is operating like this safe?
The ammount of increased helicopter traffic, as well as the increased VFR training traffic, the GA traffic and the wonderful idea ACSA had of making a ROAD cross Hotel has turned it into something of an accident waiting to happen and something needs to be done about it.
Is there anyone able to supply proof that the helipads are CAA approved?
KBK
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27F, Thanks for your input on the subject. I was blissfully unaware of all the other happenings there. We were operating from the AMS hangar and were routing outbound to Fisantekraal every time.
I was just wondering what happens when a strong SW blows across the cape and the unpredictable winds swirling around the hangars make life just that little bit more distracting for the helo drivers.
I was just wondering what happens when a strong SW blows across the cape and the unpredictable winds swirling around the hangars make life just that little bit more distracting for the helo drivers.
canthover
No comment.......but it was a fantastic bit of airmanship. You should see the pictures taken by my mate in the back and before you ask no I'm not posting them!
Have a good Christmas guys - enjoy the sun 'cos it's not nice here in London!
Farmpilot
No comment.......but it was a fantastic bit of airmanship. You should see the pictures taken by my mate in the back and before you ask no I'm not posting them!
Have a good Christmas guys - enjoy the sun 'cos it's not nice here in London!
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Kennel Keeper: Interesting comment about the pads being approved by CAA and ATNS. As far as I know they are not approved by either party. Why do you hear the expression "AT YOUR OWN DISCRETION". I think 27 Foxtrot has hit the nail on the head. If the pads were approved you would not hear that expression
The CATS/CARS require all take-offs/landings to be done from a runway (or designated area). ......................say no more
Dont ask ACSA about them - all they are interested in is getting money and they really have no clue about helipads and their operations.
The reason why ATC uses 34 is reasonably simple. Refer 2 paras above. As all take-offs and landings are required from a runway, what chance have you got of doing them on 01/19 with in use for fixed wings? It is not a designated area, but one which is used so that helicopters can fly at the airfield. The reason why only 1 is supposed to fly there at once, is also pretty simple: can you expect ATC to control 2 circuits at the same time and watch all those aircraft. It is hard enough trying to watch one, never mind 2. And you know how many complaints we get from the (fixed wing) operators about the helis operating there. I am suprised that we are even allowed to have helis operating there
27Foxtrot. Have to agree with you on many points, the best being can anyone provide proof that the helipads are approved. We have been trying for ages to get it and we cant seem to get it right. Hence we s*&^t ourselves when helicopters fly in and out of the hangars. With some of those pilots flying around there, it is only a matter of time...... You certainly are right as well about some of the ops and the requests we sometimes get, bets the hell out of me, where do they think them up and how do they expect us to accommodate the. Then the pilots get rude and have a full go at the ATC because we cant approve their requests. Never mind the non-standard (aka ex-SAAF/border ops) r/t that some of them use.
Tokoloshe: There are almost 30 aerodrome controllers that ops at FACT and about 20 helis there as well. With the amount of time that we spend in the tower, can you really expect an ATC to remember YOUR helicopter each time it flies. With approx 350 movs a day, you try and remember each type. As far as I know your helicopter is below the minimum weight, hence we dont even charge for ATS services. Don't ask me about ACSA fees - That is why you have to call the Apron office prior to your flight
Pilots are constantly nagging us as ATCS to make a decision and sort it out. Wrong party. We don't own the airport and are only responsible for ATS and its associated services. You should be moaning at the airport owner to sort it out, but as if they care...... I am sorry to say it, but as a colleague said the other day, the only time it will get sorted out is when a helicopter goes down and takes another aircraft, bus, car, steps, catering truck, refuelling truck or the like with it. We have been proactive in trying to get it sorted out....
Local ATNS management had an agreement with some of the helicopter operators about procedures in the hangar area and how we were going to manage this problem, but it seems that some pilots are above that. It was discussed and minuted at the General Aviation Committee meeting a year or two ago and I am sure it is still in their minutes.
Finally, (as the actress said to the Bishop): Anyone thought about this.......As the pads are not approved and you do not get a clearence to ops from them by ATC, is your insurance and liability of the helicopter covered should you be involved in an incident and you damage your helicopter and another party. Will your insurance pay for any costs involved. I wonder.......anyone care to check that out and answer it.......or have I opened a can of worms........Oh well I am sure the day will come when this is tested and someone might be paying off their credit card for a long time.......Like all those helicopter instructors that want to train everywhere else except the designated areas - hope you don't have a problem over Zeekoeivlei or Kommetjie...... anyone know what the CATS/CARS say about training in a non-designated area??
TOWER: "ZSABC there is traffic at 5 o clock.."
PILOT: "Thanks but dont worry about it, the time is now 3.15!!!!!!"
The CATS/CARS require all take-offs/landings to be done from a runway (or designated area). ......................say no more
Dont ask ACSA about them - all they are interested in is getting money and they really have no clue about helipads and their operations.
The reason why ATC uses 34 is reasonably simple. Refer 2 paras above. As all take-offs and landings are required from a runway, what chance have you got of doing them on 01/19 with in use for fixed wings? It is not a designated area, but one which is used so that helicopters can fly at the airfield. The reason why only 1 is supposed to fly there at once, is also pretty simple: can you expect ATC to control 2 circuits at the same time and watch all those aircraft. It is hard enough trying to watch one, never mind 2. And you know how many complaints we get from the (fixed wing) operators about the helis operating there. I am suprised that we are even allowed to have helis operating there
27Foxtrot. Have to agree with you on many points, the best being can anyone provide proof that the helipads are approved. We have been trying for ages to get it and we cant seem to get it right. Hence we s*&^t ourselves when helicopters fly in and out of the hangars. With some of those pilots flying around there, it is only a matter of time...... You certainly are right as well about some of the ops and the requests we sometimes get, bets the hell out of me, where do they think them up and how do they expect us to accommodate the. Then the pilots get rude and have a full go at the ATC because we cant approve their requests. Never mind the non-standard (aka ex-SAAF/border ops) r/t that some of them use.
Tokoloshe: There are almost 30 aerodrome controllers that ops at FACT and about 20 helis there as well. With the amount of time that we spend in the tower, can you really expect an ATC to remember YOUR helicopter each time it flies. With approx 350 movs a day, you try and remember each type. As far as I know your helicopter is below the minimum weight, hence we dont even charge for ATS services. Don't ask me about ACSA fees - That is why you have to call the Apron office prior to your flight
Pilots are constantly nagging us as ATCS to make a decision and sort it out. Wrong party. We don't own the airport and are only responsible for ATS and its associated services. You should be moaning at the airport owner to sort it out, but as if they care...... I am sorry to say it, but as a colleague said the other day, the only time it will get sorted out is when a helicopter goes down and takes another aircraft, bus, car, steps, catering truck, refuelling truck or the like with it. We have been proactive in trying to get it sorted out....
Local ATNS management had an agreement with some of the helicopter operators about procedures in the hangar area and how we were going to manage this problem, but it seems that some pilots are above that. It was discussed and minuted at the General Aviation Committee meeting a year or two ago and I am sure it is still in their minutes.
Finally, (as the actress said to the Bishop): Anyone thought about this.......As the pads are not approved and you do not get a clearence to ops from them by ATC, is your insurance and liability of the helicopter covered should you be involved in an incident and you damage your helicopter and another party. Will your insurance pay for any costs involved. I wonder.......anyone care to check that out and answer it.......or have I opened a can of worms........Oh well I am sure the day will come when this is tested and someone might be paying off their credit card for a long time.......Like all those helicopter instructors that want to train everywhere else except the designated areas - hope you don't have a problem over Zeekoeivlei or Kommetjie...... anyone know what the CATS/CARS say about training in a non-designated area??
TOWER: "ZSABC there is traffic at 5 o clock.."
PILOT: "Thanks but dont worry about it, the time is now 3.15!!!!!!"
Last edited by Goldfish Jack; 23rd Dec 2004 at 19:29.
