ATPL Requirements - CAA what a joke
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Misread, maybe - stupid, no....
126.9
I quote:
"You've clearly misread point 4.
As one who had to use this law (many years ago) to have my ALTP issued, I know. The key is: entitled to be credited with not more than 50 per cent of the total flight time during which he or she acted as such.
That clearly say that an FO will be credited with 50% of his total FO time!"
Yes, you are right all FO hours count, and even though the CARs do not specifically state this, you have to refer back to Annex 1 of the ICAO Convention on International Civil Aviation.
Annex 1 Par 2.1.9.2 states: "The holder of a pilot license, when acting as co-pilot of an aircraft required to be operated with a co-pilot, shall be entitled to be credited with no more than 50 per cent of the co-pilot flight time towards the total flight time required for a higher grade of pilot license."
Now as the SACAA has not filed a difference on this par, it has to be adhered to. My humble interpretation (and being a boertjie, I can be mistaken) does not count here, but what counts, is the interpretation of the CAA.
This means that even if you have 4000 P2 hours, your co-pilot hours may only count towards 50% (750 hours) of the total flight time (1500 hours) required for the higher grade of pilot license (ATPL). The rest, well hire a C172....
As I said, my boere english may leave me in the lurch every now and then, but feel free to phone the FOI's (try Mr Claassen) at the CAA and confirm their interpretation.
I quote:
"You've clearly misread point 4.
As one who had to use this law (many years ago) to have my ALTP issued, I know. The key is: entitled to be credited with not more than 50 per cent of the total flight time during which he or she acted as such.
That clearly say that an FO will be credited with 50% of his total FO time!"
Yes, you are right all FO hours count, and even though the CARs do not specifically state this, you have to refer back to Annex 1 of the ICAO Convention on International Civil Aviation.
Annex 1 Par 2.1.9.2 states: "The holder of a pilot license, when acting as co-pilot of an aircraft required to be operated with a co-pilot, shall be entitled to be credited with no more than 50 per cent of the co-pilot flight time towards the total flight time required for a higher grade of pilot license."
Now as the SACAA has not filed a difference on this par, it has to be adhered to. My humble interpretation (and being a boertjie, I can be mistaken) does not count here, but what counts, is the interpretation of the CAA.
This means that even if you have 4000 P2 hours, your co-pilot hours may only count towards 50% (750 hours) of the total flight time (1500 hours) required for the higher grade of pilot license (ATPL). The rest, well hire a C172....
As I said, my boere english may leave me in the lurch every now and then, but feel free to phone the FOI's (try Mr Claassen) at the CAA and confirm their interpretation.
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Sorry mate. Dunno Mr Claasen. What I do know is what is written in tha ANR's as well as in my logbook from all those years ago. I needed 804 hours and was credited with those due to 1608 hours af an F-27 FO! 
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Hang in there!
I must say that with more than 11300 hours now, I agree with 126.9. I had more than enough hours to get ant ALTP + ATP and a few others without needing to go thru fine line of scrapping together a few hours. I never had an instructors rating, maybe I regret that or I would’ve had a few more hours by this age of 36. Bottom line is, work hard, enjoy the flying keep it safe and play by the rules. Rules do change from country to country, but the world is your oyster and let me tell you, the world is big. This thread is really a wannabee thread and after attaining those ATPL/ALTP's there are even bigger problems, keeping them all current if need be. Simulators in an airline every six months at a very strict standard. It seems that the easiest thing in flying was to the hard study for those ATPL/ALTP/ATP's (not certain ATP’s in my opinion), the rest of the time, you are studying for the next 6 month check and it never ends. You are always studying and always trying hard to keep the standard, and believe me, those standards, change, move and are reluctant to wait for you.
I would like to say, if you have the time to persevere in attaining an ALTP, you are on good footing of what is the start of what is to come. And it keeps coming!
So what if it a few hours needed here and there, soon, the hours keep pouring in, you don't know what to do with them, log books start to slip by a week or two and a few of the non essential ALTP's fall by the way side (as in my case- I still keep the SA and one or two others and the rest, so what!)
We were all flying those charter days from Lanseria to the swamps, power stations, middle-of-no-where-fontain).
Deciding here on pprune, what is law and what is not, is not helping anyone, so put it in writing to your nearest friendly SACAA office and ask what is more required and do the time and qualification and welcome to the real world.
I enjoy my present position flying an Airbus A340, it took a long time, patience with not much understanding at times, but I am almost there (so I would like to hope!!! who knows....). Believe me, this thread and its answers are the smallest of your problems in our enjoyable world of flying.
Hang in there, you"ll get there- with that ATPL!
I would like to say, if you have the time to persevere in attaining an ALTP, you are on good footing of what is the start of what is to come. And it keeps coming!
So what if it a few hours needed here and there, soon, the hours keep pouring in, you don't know what to do with them, log books start to slip by a week or two and a few of the non essential ALTP's fall by the way side (as in my case- I still keep the SA and one or two others and the rest, so what!)
We were all flying those charter days from Lanseria to the swamps, power stations, middle-of-no-where-fontain).
Deciding here on pprune, what is law and what is not, is not helping anyone, so put it in writing to your nearest friendly SACAA office and ask what is more required and do the time and qualification and welcome to the real world.
I enjoy my present position flying an Airbus A340, it took a long time, patience with not much understanding at times, but I am almost there (so I would like to hope!!! who knows....). Believe me, this thread and its answers are the smallest of your problems in our enjoyable world of flying.
Hang in there, you"ll get there- with that ATPL!
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(4)__A commercial pilot, when acting as co-pilot in an aircraft normally required to be operated with a co-pilot, shall be entitled to be credited with not more than 50 per cent of the total flight time during which he or she acted as such, towards the total flight time required for a higher grade pilot licence.
(with thanks to freightboss)
126.9 with respect I'd like to just point out what I noticed about this, it could be read with the sentence broken up in another manner like this
when acting as co-pilot in an aircraft normally required to be operated with a co-pilot, shall be entitled to be credited with not more than 50 per cent of the total flight time ( during which he or she acted as such,) towards the total flight time required for a higher grade pilot licence.
which then puts the emphasis on 'credited with not more than 50 per cent of the total flight time required for a higher grade pilots licence'...ie. 750 hrs
It's not very well worded at all, very ambiguous. Why bother mentioning 'for a higher grade pilots licence'? Why not just 'for an ATPL'? In their defence, I believe their thinking here was to keep the text full of variables instead of having to re-write everything every time theres a change to the law. For example, they go to great effort to say, in an as long-winded manner, as possible
'towards the total flight time required for a higher grade pilot licence'
instead of
'towards the 1500hrs required for an ATPL'
so that if ever the hours requirements change, or the licence is renamed, they don't have to change the verbiage, just the definitions.
But it certainly makes it difficult to interpret.
(with thanks to freightboss)
126.9 with respect I'd like to just point out what I noticed about this, it could be read with the sentence broken up in another manner like this
when acting as co-pilot in an aircraft normally required to be operated with a co-pilot, shall be entitled to be credited with not more than 50 per cent of the total flight time ( during which he or she acted as such,) towards the total flight time required for a higher grade pilot licence.
which then puts the emphasis on 'credited with not more than 50 per cent of the total flight time required for a higher grade pilots licence'...ie. 750 hrs
It's not very well worded at all, very ambiguous. Why bother mentioning 'for a higher grade pilots licence'? Why not just 'for an ATPL'? In their defence, I believe their thinking here was to keep the text full of variables instead of having to re-write everything every time theres a change to the law. For example, they go to great effort to say, in an as long-winded manner, as possible
'towards the total flight time required for a higher grade pilot licence'
instead of
'towards the 1500hrs required for an ATPL'
so that if ever the hours requirements change, or the licence is renamed, they don't have to change the verbiage, just the definitions.
But it certainly makes it difficult to interpret.
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PlaneCrazi
I enjoyed your post - Couldn't be closer to the truth. I flew for a Lanseria based operator not too long ago and my two years with them felt like the hardest time of my life so far. There were MANY days where I felt troubled and almost depressed about not being able to move on. The company was fantastisc in the sense that they helped those who wanted to attain higher ratings. Out of the pool of pilots, a handful took the opportunity to do an initial instructor rating, some did Gr II upgrades or Multi-engine instructor's ratings. But during a very quiet time with the company, less than a handful took the opportunity to study and complete the ATP exams. Now, within a period of 6 months the ATP rated guys were able to move on. The hard work and studies surely paid off and now, after having gone through my first "real" type rating which included more than a dozen simulator sessions, I clearly see what you mean. The studies do not end the day when you receive your ATP exam final-results printout at the CAA.
If the aim of "scraping together" every bit of an hour you can dig out somewhere to obtain the ATP, just to have it, I'd say "Relax and enjoy!". Don't become so obsessed with it that you lose sight of the fact that you are flying NOW not to build hours but because you love it. Because soon enough you'll land that "magical job" and you'll wonder why you never took the time to look at the sun setting over a 12 000ft high horizon. Hours ARE important, don't get me wrong, but do not sacrifice the quality of those hours for quantity.
For those who fly as a co-jo on a multi-engine aircraft for a company who have other aircraft they are rated on, why not try to fly a little on those too to log PIC time? Im sure there are company's out there who'll allow that?
Take it easy!
I enjoyed your post - Couldn't be closer to the truth. I flew for a Lanseria based operator not too long ago and my two years with them felt like the hardest time of my life so far. There were MANY days where I felt troubled and almost depressed about not being able to move on. The company was fantastisc in the sense that they helped those who wanted to attain higher ratings. Out of the pool of pilots, a handful took the opportunity to do an initial instructor rating, some did Gr II upgrades or Multi-engine instructor's ratings. But during a very quiet time with the company, less than a handful took the opportunity to study and complete the ATP exams. Now, within a period of 6 months the ATP rated guys were able to move on. The hard work and studies surely paid off and now, after having gone through my first "real" type rating which included more than a dozen simulator sessions, I clearly see what you mean. The studies do not end the day when you receive your ATP exam final-results printout at the CAA.
If the aim of "scraping together" every bit of an hour you can dig out somewhere to obtain the ATP, just to have it, I'd say "Relax and enjoy!". Don't become so obsessed with it that you lose sight of the fact that you are flying NOW not to build hours but because you love it. Because soon enough you'll land that "magical job" and you'll wonder why you never took the time to look at the sun setting over a 12 000ft high horizon. Hours ARE important, don't get me wrong, but do not sacrifice the quality of those hours for quantity.
For those who fly as a co-jo on a multi-engine aircraft for a company who have other aircraft they are rated on, why not try to fly a little on those too to log PIC time? Im sure there are company's out there who'll allow that?
Take it easy!
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PlaneCrazi & SubsonicMortal
Nicely said mates!
As for the rest of it here, this is turning into another PPRuNe Meg-P!ssing-Contest! I personally couldn't give a continental cr@p how many hours you need, or which way you'd like to twist the wording of the reg's to suit your own requirement. The bottom line is that you will have to jump through the very same hoops that the rest of us did in getting licensed.
Personally, I reckon they should make the ATPL requirement 10,000 hours for pilots without an instructor's rating and also just give them away to instructors...!
As for the rest of it here, this is turning into another PPRuNe Meg-P!ssing-Contest! I personally couldn't give a continental cr@p how many hours you need, or which way you'd like to twist the wording of the reg's to suit your own requirement. The bottom line is that you will have to jump through the very same hoops that the rest of us did in getting licensed.
Personally, I reckon they should make the ATPL requirement 10,000 hours for pilots without an instructor's rating and also just give them away to instructors...!
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Now we all know where we stand. Thank you for everyones opinions on this topic.
Pro`s and cons, fly as an instructor for 1500 hrs get your ATP, fly as a F/O and get 3000 for your ATP, but meet friends for life, see the world and gain a heap of experience ( even though some dissagree with the last ). I personally am happy to be the 2nd and wouldnt swop it for anything in the world !
I tend to disagree though with the opinion that instructors put in the extra mile and charter and contract pilot dont. Im sure everyone would love stay in his/her own country with family and friends, but unfortuanately for some the financial commitments dont allow it. I`m sure a comm license didnt cost R 250 000,00 10 - 20 years ago ! We cant all be cadets.....
Fly safe
Pro`s and cons, fly as an instructor for 1500 hrs get your ATP, fly as a F/O and get 3000 for your ATP, but meet friends for life, see the world and gain a heap of experience ( even though some dissagree with the last ). I personally am happy to be the 2nd and wouldnt swop it for anything in the world !
I tend to disagree though with the opinion that instructors put in the extra mile and charter and contract pilot dont. Im sure everyone would love stay in his/her own country with family and friends, but unfortuanately for some the financial commitments dont allow it. I`m sure a comm license didnt cost R 250 000,00 10 - 20 years ago ! We cant all be cadets.....
Fly safe
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126.9 my dear chap, lots of us have jumped the hoops and lots shall still. Thought we were having a decent chat about the requirements because they were highlighted as being unclear..
The CAA believe one thing and most of us believe another. Discussion about this is good.
My opinion on 1500 hr instructors, for what its worth, is that when after one minute monitoring a C172 around the circuit at FAGC, the next minute (after the rating) the instructor finds himself operating a 30-ton jet in and out of dirt strips in Chad or into some strange new african airport at night surrounded by CBs & welding & +TSRA, his eyes tend to grow a bit big. And mine would too.
I think that contract flying, especially with jets, in Africa, and in other areas where SA companies are operating, like Afghanistan and Iraq, make a very much more capable and well-rounded pilot out of you than does just flying the line CPT-PE-DBN every day, in a nice familiar safe radar environment.
Operating on contract teaches you all sorts of things you would never learn just flying the line back home, you really get to grips with the capabilities of the aircraft and become familiar with performance under various conditions. You will probably experience a lot more things go wrong because you operate older aircraft in dodgier areas, and from these things you learn a lot.
Beetling about an aerodrome back home in a 172 is even worse from building a well-rounded pilot point of view.
But I suppose if you are looking for line pilots to fly JNB-CPT-JNB every day he's the one because he'll have got used to being bored
The CAA believe one thing and most of us believe another. Discussion about this is good.
My opinion on 1500 hr instructors, for what its worth, is that when after one minute monitoring a C172 around the circuit at FAGC, the next minute (after the rating) the instructor finds himself operating a 30-ton jet in and out of dirt strips in Chad or into some strange new african airport at night surrounded by CBs & welding & +TSRA, his eyes tend to grow a bit big. And mine would too.
I think that contract flying, especially with jets, in Africa, and in other areas where SA companies are operating, like Afghanistan and Iraq, make a very much more capable and well-rounded pilot out of you than does just flying the line CPT-PE-DBN every day, in a nice familiar safe radar environment.
Operating on contract teaches you all sorts of things you would never learn just flying the line back home, you really get to grips with the capabilities of the aircraft and become familiar with performance under various conditions. You will probably experience a lot more things go wrong because you operate older aircraft in dodgier areas, and from these things you learn a lot.
Beetling about an aerodrome back home in a 172 is even worse from building a well-rounded pilot point of view.
But I suppose if you are looking for line pilots to fly JNB-CPT-JNB every day he's the one because he'll have got used to being bored
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I agree with Zoltan and some other guys. Instructors might be the PIC of the aircraft, but where do they learn how to handle things like going into bad dirt strips, flying in bad wheather, trying to understand the ATC in Africa (or any non-English speaking places). Even if you have to deal with all the other stuff in contract flying, only experience in the field counts. So the co-pilots learn all that and more wehile working, but the instructor can not. They haven't been there.
And this whole thing about instructors going the extra mile and the other not. PLEASE!!!!!!! What about all the people that work in all the war zones, African countries, etc. Do you really think that that is not going the exra mile? Then you have think again. Being away from home for months at a time, trying to build that valuble experience in usually less than ideal conditions is, I think, in most people's point of view going the extra mile. Yes, they have done extra studies, but they sit in a nice cosy environment where you have people doing all the thinking for you. Teaching S&L flying won't help you in the world out there. It is different.
And this whole thing about instructors going the extra mile and the other not. PLEASE!!!!!!! What about all the people that work in all the war zones, African countries, etc. Do you really think that that is not going the exra mile? Then you have think again. Being away from home for months at a time, trying to build that valuble experience in usually less than ideal conditions is, I think, in most people's point of view going the extra mile. Yes, they have done extra studies, but they sit in a nice cosy environment where you have people doing all the thinking for you. Teaching S&L flying won't help you in the world out there. It is different.
Nigerian In Law
Circuits & Bumps
When I left the forces I did my ATPL exams after a "Crammer". I was excused the GFTs by the CAA as I had 1,500 hrs of miltary helicopter flying gained all over the world. Fair enough I thought.
On the course I met quite a few people who had as many (and some more) hours than me, just about all of which had been gained in their flying club circuit or on local navexs while acting as as instructors with the sole aim of building hours. Most of them were hoping to become airline pilots in the fullness of time and all of them were intelligent and motivated.
So who had the most relevant experience ? I had no idea about Air Law etc, but I could fly under sometimes difficult conditions which needed common sense, initiative and flexibility. They knew the intricacies of civil flying but lacked the "hands on" experience.
I think the number of hours are only relevant where they are needed to qualify for a licence type, i.e. CPL or ATPL. It's how you get them that matters. After all, once you are "on the job" nobody asks how many hours you have, you are judged by your performance.
On the course I met quite a few people who had as many (and some more) hours than me, just about all of which had been gained in their flying club circuit or on local navexs while acting as as instructors with the sole aim of building hours. Most of them were hoping to become airline pilots in the fullness of time and all of them were intelligent and motivated.
So who had the most relevant experience ? I had no idea about Air Law etc, but I could fly under sometimes difficult conditions which needed common sense, initiative and flexibility. They knew the intricacies of civil flying but lacked the "hands on" experience.
I think the number of hours are only relevant where they are needed to qualify for a licence type, i.e. CPL or ATPL. It's how you get them that matters. After all, once you are "on the job" nobody asks how many hours you have, you are judged by your performance.
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Agree with ASkies..i for one would kill for a nice job back home closer to the loved one's etc. My friends whom i did my PPL with back in the days are still at home yes, with the loved one's and they instructors on piston singles.....i opted to get a turbine rating instead of the R20 000 for instructors and also got my ATP exams out of the way.
Now, im Captain on a medium weight twin turbine....they still my friends but there's a pretty noticeable difference in our experience when we have a chat around the braai when i do get to go home!!!(same TT but diff a/c) All my respect, the industry needs us all but lets be realistic here...
My advice to the guys complaining about the requirements...NOT, pack your bag, say good-bye to mommy and the missis and go do your time like we all, next time you watch the BOKS beat the Kiwis at Epark have a beer on the boys!
Good luck
Now, im Captain on a medium weight twin turbine....they still my friends but there's a pretty noticeable difference in our experience when we have a chat around the braai when i do get to go home!!!(same TT but diff a/c) All my respect, the industry needs us all but lets be realistic here...
My advice to the guys complaining about the requirements...NOT, pack your bag, say good-bye to mommy and the missis and go do your time like we all, next time you watch the BOKS beat the Kiwis at Epark have a beer on the boys!
Good luck
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Ja nee
Its with amazement, that I read another irrelevant bile spitting contest! I never thought of my fying career as a race, but more as a journey that I chose to undertake. I wouldnt have missed any part of it even if I had to do it over. It was what made my choice worth it.
I think what we have here is a severe case of performance angst.
I have been coming arcross it more regularly the last couple of years.
I dont have half the hours as the 11300hr 36 year old wizzkid or havent been around as long as some as some of the silver haired icons, but here is maybe another way of looking at it.
An aviation career is always a journey of choices. You start as a student pilot and choose to continue to complete your PPL. Then you choose to do the CPL after assessing what is needed, like Night rating, IF ratings, etc. Complete it and then by now you should choose which of the branches of professional avaiation you want to be part of. Instructing, contracting, crop protection, the tourist indusrtry, corporate, airline, freight, or any of the numerous others. None of them outrank any of the others. Thats right not even the airline branch(althought I believe there are some that think it does).They all have their own special peculiarities that requires a special specific professional skill.
Thus you choose your field of interest, and work to obtain the experience and skill, to make you a true professional pilot. As you enjoy flying, this part is the part we should all look forward to, and enjoy. The only reason we might not is because we like to have the butter on both sides, and we choose with our wallets instead of our harts.
After a couple of years we obtain the level of experience and skill that allow us to assess, again our level of experience and skill. When tested and found not to light we get issued with the privilage to continue the journey faster and bigger, but always the reason of our journey not escaping us.
All the while we keep a record of our journey, and, because the journeymen that regulate our passion, needs a measuring stick to evaluate our skill and experience, require us to record the record of our journey in the same manner, in order to make sure the the journey is as safe for us as for our fellow travelers.
Remember its not a race!
Its a journey in search of self exelence.
A Pilots Flying Logbook should reflect the journey you made.
The measuring stick has been determined, use it for its purpose not for the purpose you think it should be used for. For that you can use your indexfinger on your left hand.
Safe journey brothers......
PS, Gunns sorry we missed you the other day. Will let you know when we back again. Will mail you our number here.
I think what we have here is a severe case of performance angst.
I have been coming arcross it more regularly the last couple of years.
I dont have half the hours as the 11300hr 36 year old wizzkid or havent been around as long as some as some of the silver haired icons, but here is maybe another way of looking at it.
An aviation career is always a journey of choices. You start as a student pilot and choose to continue to complete your PPL. Then you choose to do the CPL after assessing what is needed, like Night rating, IF ratings, etc. Complete it and then by now you should choose which of the branches of professional avaiation you want to be part of. Instructing, contracting, crop protection, the tourist indusrtry, corporate, airline, freight, or any of the numerous others. None of them outrank any of the others. Thats right not even the airline branch(althought I believe there are some that think it does).They all have their own special peculiarities that requires a special specific professional skill.
Thus you choose your field of interest, and work to obtain the experience and skill, to make you a true professional pilot. As you enjoy flying, this part is the part we should all look forward to, and enjoy. The only reason we might not is because we like to have the butter on both sides, and we choose with our wallets instead of our harts.
After a couple of years we obtain the level of experience and skill that allow us to assess, again our level of experience and skill. When tested and found not to light we get issued with the privilage to continue the journey faster and bigger, but always the reason of our journey not escaping us.
All the while we keep a record of our journey, and, because the journeymen that regulate our passion, needs a measuring stick to evaluate our skill and experience, require us to record the record of our journey in the same manner, in order to make sure the the journey is as safe for us as for our fellow travelers.
Remember its not a race!
Its a journey in search of self exelence.
A Pilots Flying Logbook should reflect the journey you made.
The measuring stick has been determined, use it for its purpose not for the purpose you think it should be used for. For that you can use your indexfinger on your left hand.
Safe journey brothers......
PS, Gunns sorry we missed you the other day. Will let you know when we back again. Will mail you our number here.
"..the time has come the walrus said, to speak of many things, of pirate ships, and sealing wax, and cabbages and kings..."
