friends, salaries and aviation
ZbV
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I. M. Esperto
Employer offers a salary of 5000$... First question should be "Zim Dollars or US Dollars?"
I actually had one comedian try to offer me Zim Dollars... What a funny man.
JurassicJetFlyer
I actually had one comedian try to offer me Zim Dollars... What a funny man.
JurassicJetFlyer
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Jacobest Avcrew.com has a Salary Survey of the pilots in USA . If you participated you got a copy for free, if not you have to pay.
Makes for interesting reading though.
Makes for interesting reading though.
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R1.30/km
R1.30/km is OK for turbine and light piston twins but a DC3 at 200km/hr stuck in the snot with no autopilot and trying to keep those old donkeys happy is no picnic.
Compare that to the BE200 driver at FL250 and 450km/hr, pressurised and autopilot engaged with nothing to do but eat lunch and talk kak. The bucks you make for working yourself to a standstill are a joke.
At least we can feel superior to the rest of you okes, though........
Compare that to the BE200 driver at FL250 and 450km/hr, pressurised and autopilot engaged with nothing to do but eat lunch and talk kak. The bucks you make for working yourself to a standstill are a joke.
At least we can feel superior to the rest of you okes, though........
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pilot salaries etc
Great thread !
Getting back to Jacobest's initial idea of somehow regulating contract pilots salaries , I feel that this is impossible to do on a broader scale as the contract aviation job market falls within the global freemarket economic system. Any attempt to regulate this is communist/socialist in its intent, and we all know how well those systems work or dont work.
From a financial point of view, it does not make economic sense for any operator to pay a pilot more than what the market requires. This is the most basic and natural of economic principles, the law of supply and demand.
Over supply of pilots + low supply of jobs = price of pilots comes down.
No sane bussiness man would pay any employee $3000 a month when someone equally qualified will happily do the same job for $2000 as this would erode any bussiness's competeive edge.
Look at what happend to the Swiss company in Algeria, the crews were the some of the highest paid in the aviation contract market in Africa and, captains were on $5000 + per month , on and off contract, then the South African contract company's came onto the scene and climbed into the market because the SA pilots will fly the same aircraft for $3000 per month which made their companies more competitive and they won the tenders as a result. I wonder how long it will take before some other companies, Russian or Chinese or something , pull into the scene and start undercutting the SA guys and flying for $1500 per month.
Something that I think should concern the contract pilots alot more is the the amount of operators in Africa who actually screw their pilots over and dont pay them at all or dont come up with the promised money when it comes to pay their pilots.
A certain aircraft owner (of ZS LTE a beech 200) actually managed to get a few of his pilots to operate his plane for quite a few months in Algeria without actually paying them their salaries, I beleive this aircraft was recently "crewless" in Bamako, and the owner was looking for pilots to work for him.
Would the moderators allow a "Dodgey Operator Blacklist" to be published on the prune giving details of these ethically challenged individuals or company's to forewarn other pilots ?
Getting back to Jacobest's initial idea of somehow regulating contract pilots salaries , I feel that this is impossible to do on a broader scale as the contract aviation job market falls within the global freemarket economic system. Any attempt to regulate this is communist/socialist in its intent, and we all know how well those systems work or dont work.
From a financial point of view, it does not make economic sense for any operator to pay a pilot more than what the market requires. This is the most basic and natural of economic principles, the law of supply and demand.
Over supply of pilots + low supply of jobs = price of pilots comes down.
No sane bussiness man would pay any employee $3000 a month when someone equally qualified will happily do the same job for $2000 as this would erode any bussiness's competeive edge.
Look at what happend to the Swiss company in Algeria, the crews were the some of the highest paid in the aviation contract market in Africa and, captains were on $5000 + per month , on and off contract, then the South African contract company's came onto the scene and climbed into the market because the SA pilots will fly the same aircraft for $3000 per month which made their companies more competitive and they won the tenders as a result. I wonder how long it will take before some other companies, Russian or Chinese or something , pull into the scene and start undercutting the SA guys and flying for $1500 per month.
Something that I think should concern the contract pilots alot more is the the amount of operators in Africa who actually screw their pilots over and dont pay them at all or dont come up with the promised money when it comes to pay their pilots.
A certain aircraft owner (of ZS LTE a beech 200) actually managed to get a few of his pilots to operate his plane for quite a few months in Algeria without actually paying them their salaries, I beleive this aircraft was recently "crewless" in Bamako, and the owner was looking for pilots to work for him.
Would the moderators allow a "Dodgey Operator Blacklist" to be published on the prune giving details of these ethically challenged individuals or company's to forewarn other pilots ?
ZbV
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Dodgey Operator Blacklist
A DOB would be just great...
Next we need to figure out what would put a company on that list.
- Salary late consistently or short
- Disrespecting terms of contract
These are easy to prove too.
JJ
Next we need to figure out what would put a company on that list.
- Salary late consistently or short
- Disrespecting terms of contract
These are easy to prove too.
JJ
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Simple you could use the FTC of Africa matching scale.
If they have any of the business acumen, ablilites, administration, lack of professionalism or sheer risk to life and limb of FTC then they should definately be on the blacklist.
If they are better than FTC then they could be elevated to scum and if they actually pay thier staff and don't put them in sitautions where they are likely to die then they could be called kinda okay companies
If they are like SAA, Quantas, BA then they go top of the list.
Who wants to start off by placing Rossair ?
If they have any of the business acumen, ablilites, administration, lack of professionalism or sheer risk to life and limb of FTC then they should definately be on the blacklist.
If they are better than FTC then they could be elevated to scum and if they actually pay thier staff and don't put them in sitautions where they are likely to die then they could be called kinda okay companies
If they are like SAA, Quantas, BA then they go top of the list.
Who wants to start off by placing Rossair ?
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Hi guys
Very interesting reading this thread. I came across this site which deals largely with the UK, EU and US operators - www.ppjn.com
Perhaps the concept could be extended to African operators.
Cheers
GT
Very interesting reading this thread. I came across this site which deals largely with the UK, EU and US operators - www.ppjn.com
Perhaps the concept could be extended to African operators.
Cheers
GT
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great idea, but dont think youll be able to do it on this forum,
might have to start your own site and have pilots rate listed companies
award points for stuff like late payment, training - does co pay or do you, do you pay for ratings, do you pay for flighttests, forced to fly when you dont wanna, flight & duty transgressions etc etc
the more points - the lower on the scale - like golf
might have to start your own site and have pilots rate listed companies
award points for stuff like late payment, training - does co pay or do you, do you pay for ratings, do you pay for flighttests, forced to fly when you dont wanna, flight & duty transgressions etc etc
the more points - the lower on the scale - like golf
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Recent Add for example...
Just saw this add for MD 83 pilots and this is what they are offering:
$=USD per MONTH
$6000 Base
$1500 Overtime Guarantee/Month
$0750 Per Diem
$0500 Living Allowance (YYZ or YUL)
$0100 Insurance
$0350 Base Transportation Allowance
$0200 Duty Expense Buffer
$9400 TOTAL
I sh1t U not. Go check it ut for your self
@
http://www.flitejobs.com/users/jobs_...uage=1&return=
if that link works..
Well good luck anyway
4G
$=USD per MONTH
$6000 Base
$1500 Overtime Guarantee/Month
$0750 Per Diem
$0500 Living Allowance (YYZ or YUL)
$0100 Insurance
$0350 Base Transportation Allowance
$0200 Duty Expense Buffer
$9400 TOTAL
I sh1t U not. Go check it ut for your self
@
http://www.flitejobs.com/users/jobs_...uage=1&return=
if that link works..
Well good luck anyway
4G
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For luv and money !
One should find a job that you love and that at least pays what your employer promised, specifically in the African contract pilot enviroment.
I cant think of anyone that I know who would volenteer to live in Liberia/ The Congo/ The Sudan/ The Sahara etc, simply for the love of flying. There must be some sort of financial reward for putting up with living in those type of enviroments for any extended period of time.
Someone told me that the similarities between an African prostitute and an African contract pilot is that both do it for the money, they seem to enjoy their work and every client tries to screw them at the first opportunity.
The only difference between them is that the prostitute doesn't keep a logbook.
As a contact pilot , I'm ok with that concept.
I cant think of anyone that I know who would volenteer to live in Liberia/ The Congo/ The Sudan/ The Sahara etc, simply for the love of flying. There must be some sort of financial reward for putting up with living in those type of enviroments for any extended period of time.
Someone told me that the similarities between an African prostitute and an African contract pilot is that both do it for the money, they seem to enjoy their work and every client tries to screw them at the first opportunity.
The only difference between them is that the prostitute doesn't keep a logbook.
As a contact pilot , I'm ok with that concept.
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Contrating fees
Here goes my couple a cents worth.
When I started flying contracts 9 years ago, a Captain on a B200 got $8000/month. A F/O got $4000/Month. The Dollar was going for between R3.89 and R4.20
Six years ago a Captain earned R 5500/month on a B200. A F/O earned R3800/month. And the Dollar bought you R 4.68.
Two years ago for $4500/month doing the same work and a F/O got $2000 and the Dollar bought R13.60 (Lucky us!)
Captains earn $4000 an rated F/O's can expect $2200-$2500/month now the Dollar doesnt manage to buy R7.00!
I have never bought an airline ticket to go and work, or come home.(That is a trick Stickerlink learned from TossAir.)
The problem is as follows:
1.Most Contracts go out on tender. That means the Operator that can give the cheapest service stands the best chance to get the contract.
2.The client thinks if he gets the same service for less money.
That will mean the best service will be free one.
(The UN goes according to this principle!)
3. All the operators Quote on the same Contracts on the same Aircraft owned by the same Owners.( The Aircraft cost the same)
4. That means that the only way they can get in cheaper than someone else is by schkimping on the maintainance and the crew.
5.Most of the important maintainance is mandatory.( If the snag-list gets long they make money!)
6. That leaves the crew to be screwed. Me and you! If they dont, a contract will cost them money.
Think your company isnt making money off your back, think again. Ex.The UN pays your company $225/day for every crewmember on station! That is $6700/month?!
That gives them +/-$20500/month(Capt, F/O, Eng/Manager) per crew.
You know what they pay you, work out what they make off you, and not off the contract!
Incidently the pilots that still think they are here to do comunity service while their boss gets rich WAKE UP HE IS SCREWING YOU!!!
The culprit is not the pilot that will work for food its the operator that makes his buck of his back!
When I started flying contracts 9 years ago, a Captain on a B200 got $8000/month. A F/O got $4000/Month. The Dollar was going for between R3.89 and R4.20
Six years ago a Captain earned R 5500/month on a B200. A F/O earned R3800/month. And the Dollar bought you R 4.68.
Two years ago for $4500/month doing the same work and a F/O got $2000 and the Dollar bought R13.60 (Lucky us!)
Captains earn $4000 an rated F/O's can expect $2200-$2500/month now the Dollar doesnt manage to buy R7.00!
I have never bought an airline ticket to go and work, or come home.(That is a trick Stickerlink learned from TossAir.)
The problem is as follows:
1.Most Contracts go out on tender. That means the Operator that can give the cheapest service stands the best chance to get the contract.
2.The client thinks if he gets the same service for less money.
That will mean the best service will be free one.
(The UN goes according to this principle!)
3. All the operators Quote on the same Contracts on the same Aircraft owned by the same Owners.( The Aircraft cost the same)
4. That means that the only way they can get in cheaper than someone else is by schkimping on the maintainance and the crew.
5.Most of the important maintainance is mandatory.( If the snag-list gets long they make money!)
6. That leaves the crew to be screwed. Me and you! If they dont, a contract will cost them money.
Think your company isnt making money off your back, think again. Ex.The UN pays your company $225/day for every crewmember on station! That is $6700/month?!
That gives them +/-$20500/month(Capt, F/O, Eng/Manager) per crew.
You know what they pay you, work out what they make off you, and not off the contract!
Incidently the pilots that still think they are here to do comunity service while their boss gets rich WAKE UP HE IS SCREWING YOU!!!
The culprit is not the pilot that will work for food its the operator that makes his buck of his back!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2002
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New ways for companies to screw pilots
I was just browsing the internet and was looking at www.flitejobs.com To my disgust I saw two "job" postings there posted today on 08/10/03. Both from a company called South Sky and both nothing more than pure exploitation of low time pilots. I urge you to go and read it (if you are not a member, register for free) I would also urge you to sak the webmaster to have those "jobs" removed like I have.
Last edited by 4HolerPoler; 9th Oct 2003 at 08:37.
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A little update
Hi Guys
Since no one ever bothered to try and stand together about salaries, I thought I would give you this little update.
When I was working last in Malabo (May 2003) I was getting $4750.00 for a 4week stint (if I remember right the rand was around the 10 to the dollar mark)
All of us working there then was going to go to the company and "demand better wages" since the company was being paid by the customer $10000.00 a month for pilot salaries.
But then of course I was the only unfortunate "idiot" that actually did it while the other pilot's all kept quiet.
WELL, now those same pilots are getting plus minus $2600.00 for a 6 week stint (with the rand being at about 6.3 to the dollar)
And I bet you the operator is now getting $11000.00 pm for the pilots from the customer.
Isn’t life sweet, here I am getting double what I used to get, upgraded myself from flying mediums to heavy's, and I never sold myself short. On top of it all, I have permanent employment.
Just thought I would leave this info with all those guys who said that if they don't fly for peanuts, someone else will.
Cheers
Since no one ever bothered to try and stand together about salaries, I thought I would give you this little update.
When I was working last in Malabo (May 2003) I was getting $4750.00 for a 4week stint (if I remember right the rand was around the 10 to the dollar mark)
All of us working there then was going to go to the company and "demand better wages" since the company was being paid by the customer $10000.00 a month for pilot salaries.
But then of course I was the only unfortunate "idiot" that actually did it while the other pilot's all kept quiet.
WELL, now those same pilots are getting plus minus $2600.00 for a 6 week stint (with the rand being at about 6.3 to the dollar)
And I bet you the operator is now getting $11000.00 pm for the pilots from the customer.
Isn’t life sweet, here I am getting double what I used to get, upgraded myself from flying mediums to heavy's, and I never sold myself short. On top of it all, I have permanent employment.
Just thought I would leave this info with all those guys who said that if they don't fly for peanuts, someone else will.
Cheers
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Jacobest
I'm not sure that I get exactly what your point is regarding the advertising of positions for crews and salaries etc, but I am the owner of that website and if you have a problem with any of the ad's placed there, you are more than welcome to contact me and make a complaint. Any skullduggery or nonsense ad's will be removed provided that is what they are. I can assure you however that, I personally check all ad's and also contact most of the advertisers to ensure that there is no wool being pulled over.
Complaints or other comments, can be forwarded to me HERE or you can go directly through the CONTACT US page on the site. Being a pilot myself you can rest assured that I too hate bullst job advertising!
Complaints or other comments, can be forwarded to me HERE or you can go directly through the CONTACT US page on the site. Being a pilot myself you can rest assured that I too hate bulls
t job advertising!
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RTFP
126.9
Thanks for the response and give me this opportunity to respond on this open forum.
On closer inspection of the mentioned topic you refer to, you will notice that it was placed more than 6 months ago. Incidentally, that same day I posted that topic I DID e-mail you about it, yet I received no reply, until know.
When I joined flitejobs originally (of which I am no longer a member) it was free of charge. Now you CHARGE pilots to view jobs at your site: 1 month for US$12.95
3 months for US$31.95
6 months for US$54.95
12 months for US$79.95
That in itself is probably the biggest exploitation of pilots that you can get (Ag nee man sies, hoe slaap jy in die aande) in no other work market do employment agencies charge job seekers to look for work. It is the other way around. Any company who wishes to place a job on your site should be charged, NOT THE PILOTS!!!!!
If you also note on the topic, I mention the company and the date which the ad was placed, so why you are confused can only be an educated guess. I am sure that it is no longer there.
I am glad to see that you too hate b it jobs though and I would encourage you to make your site free for pilots again and to recoup your costs for running the site with the companies wanting to place job ads there. Years ago, I too started a site like yours trying to HELP pilots. I know therefore the cost and effort involved in running such a show. In fact, if you need help to run it, ask me, I will be more than willing to give some of my time free of charge to help you.
Thanks for the response and give me this opportunity to respond on this open forum.
On closer inspection of the mentioned topic you refer to, you will notice that it was placed more than 6 months ago. Incidentally, that same day I posted that topic I DID e-mail you about it, yet I received no reply, until know.
When I joined flitejobs originally (of which I am no longer a member) it was free of charge. Now you CHARGE pilots to view jobs at your site: 1 month for US$12.95
3 months for US$31.95
6 months for US$54.95
12 months for US$79.95
That in itself is probably the biggest exploitation of pilots that you can get (Ag nee man sies, hoe slaap jy in die aande) in no other work market do employment agencies charge job seekers to look for work. It is the other way around. Any company who wishes to place a job on your site should be charged, NOT THE PILOTS!!!!!
If you also note on the topic, I mention the company and the date which the ad was placed, so why you are confused can only be an educated guess. I am sure that it is no longer there.
I am glad to see that you too hate b
it jobs though and I would encourage you to make your site free for pilots again and to recoup your costs for running the site with the companies wanting to place job ads there. Years ago, I too started a site like yours trying to HELP pilots. I know therefore the cost and effort involved in running such a show. In fact, if you need help to run it, ask me, I will be more than willing to give some of my time free of charge to help you.
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Jacobest
First, I will answer your posting item for item, and then I will take up your challenge.
All posted jobs on my site expire after a period of time so as not to give a false impression of what work is available. That is more than other job sites do...
"Exploitation" as a word is only ever used by those not spending their own money to run such a site. If you have run such a site, you would know that I am STILL paying into this site.
My confusion comes from the fact that I have posted thousands of aviation jobs which expire (are deleted automatically by the site) once they are no longer valid.
I will now undertake to once again, make FliteJobs a FREE to all users website! It was my intention in the first place. However, I will do it ONLY with your FREE involvement and input!
Presently, I am redesigning the entire website and I hope to have the new site online within 12 weeks. That new site will be FREE if you help me make it so!!!? In fact; why don't you start the "Countdown to FREEDOM" thread here on the Africa Forum, and I shall post on it weekly?
It is also possible that I did not answer your email. I reply to around 400 out of the 1800 emails I receive daily.
Regards
Him With The Missing Teeth
All posted jobs on my site expire after a period of time so as not to give a false impression of what work is available. That is more than other job sites do...
"Exploitation" as a word is only ever used by those not spending their own money to run such a site. If you have run such a site, you would know that I am STILL paying into this site.
My confusion comes from the fact that I have posted thousands of aviation jobs which expire (are deleted automatically by the site) once they are no longer valid.
I will now undertake to once again, make FliteJobs a FREE to all users website! It was my intention in the first place. However, I will do it ONLY with your FREE involvement and input!
Presently, I am redesigning the entire website and I hope to have the new site online within 12 weeks. That new site will be FREE if you help me make it so!!!? In fact; why don't you start the "Countdown to FREEDOM" thread here on the Africa Forum, and I shall post on it weekly?
It is also possible that I did not answer your email. I reply to around 400 out of the 1800 emails I receive daily.
Regards
Him With The Missing Teeth
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Yebo YES
So moet n bek sonder tande mos praat
I am always up for the challenge
e-mail me at [email protected] to tell me what you need or how I can help
126.9 is going free. YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am always up for the challenge
e-mail me at [email protected] to tell me what you need or how I can help
126.9 is going free. YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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An African PPJN.com?
Someone mentioned setting up an african version of ppjn.com
I know the guy that runs it and I'm sure he'd be very happy to add your African operators. There's already an African section, it's just empty at the moment!
If you go to the african turboprop or jet regional page and click on "submit new operator" on the right hand side you'll be taken to the submission form.
Cheers,
Peter
I know the guy that runs it and I'm sure he'd be very happy to add your African operators. There's already an African section, it's just empty at the moment!
If you go to the african turboprop or jet regional page and click on "submit new operator" on the right hand side you'll be taken to the submission form.
Cheers,
Peter
