Originally Posted by Avman
(Post 11603038)
Petty standard procedure.
Seems that "pretty standard procedure" was in short supply on the flight deck that day..... |
Originally Posted by Equivocal
(Post 11602989)
. EASA appears to be an organisation that believes that rules make things safe; ergo, more rules equals more safe. This is easy to spot simply by reference to the Easy Access guides published by EASA, usually running to hundreds of pages of detailed rules to be followed. Some of these rules provide for flexibility and rely on service providers/operators establishing working methods to complement the rules. In truth, the rule frameworks are often pretty good, but are often let down by poor implementation and weak oversight by competent authorities. On pilot training and MPL, I was very skeptical when the scheme was devised, but I have to admit it works well if it is applied as it was designed for, Again EASA offered the rules to do it , but it is for the airlines to decide how to make it work. The Lufthansa group heavily relies on MPLs and from what I hear it is a success. What some low cost airlines are dong with Pay to fly or PP2F, and atypical contracts is the flip side of the coin . |
Hope that the final report details, what the real cause of this poor decision making was. The PIC failed airmanship. In my opinion it is not much about the rules. If physical there is not enough runway ahead of you, you don't try. And there was plenty of doubt. ATC asked, two crew in row 0. The runway out of their window must have looked short. If you do thousands of take offs, I think they should have an idea how it should look like. And if the numbers don't add up too, why did they try. What was the real pressure behind this decision. And why failed the CRM process.
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Originally Posted by FullMetalJackass
(Post 11603165)
Pretty standard procedure is also making sure, as PIC, you have sufficient runway ahead of you to take off, wouldn't you agree?
Seems that "pretty standard procedure" was in short supply on the flight deck that day..... |
Originally Posted by AreOut
(Post 11602218)
how often pilots require to get shorter position after they have departed the gate? Maybe the simplest solution is that ICAO just bans such practice?
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Originally Posted by Sailvi767
(Post 11603499)
Happens all the time. Usually because a flight or flights ahead are not ready to go when they get to the takeoff position. They could be waiting on weights, flight attendant demo, passengers in the Lavs or a minor issue they need to review in the Mel.
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this practice should be banned. Whole departure runway should be used for every passengers carrying aicraft, period. Some precisely defined exclusions could be accepted (for turboprops), everything else is just waiting for **** to happen.
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Originally Posted by kontrolor
(Post 11604282)
this practice should be banned. Whole departure runway should be used for every passengers carrying aicraft, period. Some precisely defined exclusions could be accepted (for turboprops), everything else is just waiting for **** to happen.
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
(Post 11602835)
What is the elevation of the airport access road at the point where it's crossed by the 30L extended centre line ?
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Originally Posted by V_2
(Post 11604307)
Using full length does not necessarily mean more runway left at rotation, quite often it just means more use of de-rated thrust or a delayed v2 climb profile and you rotate roughly same place anyway..
They could easily have taken off with much less runway ( we only needed 2800m at our T/O weight on that flight) . Difficult to make a judgement if you are not the PIC of a particular flight and do not know the numbers. Anyway this accident here is not an intersection accident , it is a take off distance/weight miscalculation one , a bit similar to the 2003 Singapore airlines 747 that attempted to take off with a TOW error of 100 tons. ( and a 330 in Australia that did the very same a few years later) so all human errors as you correctly mention. and not procedural ones. |
Originally Posted by Cozmo_NS
(Post 11604382)
If the access road was in level with the runway - it would be a disaster.
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Originally Posted by Cozmo_NS
(Post 11604382)
First is like a small downslope and then the terrain is getting lower toward access road. After the access road terrain goes uphill. Highway is on higher grounds. The difference is about 10 meters or so. Not so big, but it plays important role - Embraer basically was in ground effect after the end of the runway. If the access road was in level with the runway - it would be a disaster.
Regarding the airport access road (some 550 meter from the 30L perimeter fence) on the other hand, there you have a point. If that would have been 10 - 15 meters above runway level (with the same 10+ meter tall trees), the outcome could have been totally different. But an even far simpler 'what if' could have been catastrophic, if the runway design and approach-lights for 12R would have been the same as 12L, then the E195 would not have encountered only 3 lonely centerline approach-lights poles (as the rest of the dozens of lights are all embedded in the concrete), but it would have hit a forest of approach-light poles, striking the wing and engines all over the place. They would never have made it off the ground... |
Originally Posted by kontrolor
(Post 11604282)
this practice should be banned. Whole departure runway should be used for every passengers carrying aicraft, period. Some precisely defined exclusions could be accepted (for turboprops), everything else is just waiting for **** to happen.
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
(Post 11604387)
Anyway this accident here is not an intersection accident , it is a take off distance/weight miscalculation one , a bit similar to the 2003 Singapore airlines 747 that attempted to take off with a TOW error of 100 tons. ( and a 330 in Australia that did the very same a few years later) so all human errors as you correctly mention. and not procedural ones.
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
(Post 11604387)
Anyway this accident here is not an intersection accident , it is a take off distance/weight miscalculation one , a bit similar to the 2003 Singapore airlines 747 that attempted to take off with a TOW error of 100 tons. ( and a 330 in Australia that did the very same a few years later) so all human errors as you correctly mention. and not procedural ones.
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
(Post 11604401)
As already discussed, the data doesn't support that conclusion. The aircraft was around 175-200 feet AAL by that point.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....b9148495c2.jpg |
Originally Posted by Cozmo_NS
(Post 11604971)
Here is the visual explanation I did. I am driving here almost every day. Green shade is the "hole" or "downslope" that starts after the runway end and goes all the way down to the access road, then the terrain starts to go up. Brown shade is highway - it is well above access road, some 10 meters. Red arrow is takeoff path. Yesterday I was able to watch normal takeoff so from that perspective it would be disaster if the road is not in ravine.
Only with your conclusion:
Originally Posted by Cozmo_NS
(Post 11604382)
If the access road was in level with the runway - it would be a disaster.
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Cosmo NS posted:
"Here is the visual explanation I did." Thanks for this map . Very clear and is wellworth a thousand words!! IB |
...except it shows take off from a disused runway.
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Originally Posted by Cosmo_NS
Here is the visual explanation I did. I am driving here almost every day. Green shade is the "hole" or "downslope" that starts after the runway end and goes all the way down to the access road, then the terrain starts to go up. Brown shade is highway - it is well above access road, some 10 meters. Red arrow is takeoff path. Yesterday I was able to watch normal takeoff so from that perspective it would be disaster if the road is not in ravine.
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