Antonov 2 crash in Sweden with full Video
According with swedish local media only with minor injuries for both pilot and pax.
Sweden reg SE-KCE, private ops. An hell of a clip indeed... https://aviation-safety.net/database...?id=20230708-0 |
Honestly, what were they thinking...
It is one thing that the An-200 needs about 200m to get airborne, and another thing to clear 50ft trees at the end of that 200m. |
Is it my hearing but does the power reduce at 0.12?
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It apears to but I think that's just doppler effect.
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Originally Posted by VictorGolf
(Post 11464951)
Is it my hearing but does the power reduce at 0.12?
With only five on board I would have thought it should have been off the ground in yards, that looked quite protracted. |
Grass looks a bit long........
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Comments are missing some basic flying skills stuff here.
Lifted the tail, propeller theory dictates precession induced yaw, propeller theory dictates asymmetrical downward force and therefore drag on the main undercarriage more yaw and at this stage may be below Vmcg and Vmca so flying controls are not effective and putting any control movements just increases drag exacerbating the problem. Getting airborne too slow with big control inputs and flying sideways will never work as the a/c is below Vmca with extra drag from flying sideways and large control deflections it just gets worse with every attempt to correct. Basic error may have been that he drifted left, could not control it so decided to get airborne and fly to the right which was never going to work because of what I have written above. |
No expertise here but is this the full extent of flaps on the AN-2 ?
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Originally Posted by andrasz
(Post 11464793)
Honestly, what were they thinking...
It is one thing that the An-200 needs about 200m to get airborne, and another thing to clear 50ft trees at the end of that 200m. |
This seems to be the place in the video:
google.com/maps/@58.0500258,12.818985,3a,52y,319.34h,83.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sH1VZOkLx2Y6JQlU-xjx-Vw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=sv-SE&entry=ttu |
Originally Posted by denka
(Post 11465083)
This seems to be the place in the video:
google.com/maps/@58.0500258,12.818985,3a,52y,319.34h,83.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sH1VZOkLx2Y6JQlU-xjx-Vw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=sv-SE&entry=ttu |
Originally Posted by denka
(Post 11465083)
This seems to be the place in the video:
google.com/maps/@58.0500258,12.818985,3a,52y,319.34h,83.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sH1VZOkLx2Y6JQlU-xjx-Vw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=sv-SE&entry=ttu https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....3d04b36d61.jpg |
The video looks to be filmed from the gravel parking area near "181" in the above image. On Google Street View it looks like the field ramps up before descending after the rectangular road sign.
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Involved Pilot/Plane owner seems to own the very small so called "Kattleberg Airport".
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Originally Posted by denka
(Post 11465135)
Involved Pilot/Plane owner seems to own the very small so called "Kattleberg Airport".
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Looks a lot like adverse yaw - tried to bank hard to the right, but the additional drag on the left wing steered left, followed probably by more desperate aileron input and the ever appealing "Pull back to go up" attempt. The rudder never compensated for the yaw.
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Originally Posted by Miles Magister
(Post 11465033)
Comments are missing some basic flying skills stuff here.
Lifted the tail, propeller theory dictates precession induced yaw, propeller theory dictates asymmetrical downward force and therefore drag on the main undercarriage more yaw and at this stage may be below Vmcg and Vmca so flying controls are not effective and putting any control movements just increases drag exacerbating the problem. Getting airborne too slow with big control inputs and flying sideways will never work as the a/c is below Vmca with extra drag from flying sideways and large control deflections it just gets worse with every attempt to correct. Basic error may have been that he drifted left, could not control it so decided to get airborne and fly to the right which was never going to work because of what I have written above. |
Originally Posted by roundsounds
(Post 11465805)
very impressive explanation, however Vmca and Vmcg are only applicable to multi-engine airplanes.
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some single engine aircraft are not controllable at full power on the ground below a certain speed due to limited rudder authority |
Originally Posted by EXDAC
(Post 11465861)
I was going to make the same comment and to include that the engines had to be mounted off center line. I stopped myself because some single engine aircraft are not controllable at full power on the ground below a certain speed due to limited rudder authority. I didn't know what V speed (if any) defined that. Anyone know?
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Originally Posted by denka
(Post 11465083)
This seems to be the place in the video:
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Originally Posted by Miles Magister
(Post 11465953)
I used th multi engine terms to illustrate what you have said. The basic information indicates that flight was attempted before there was sufficient airspeed for effective use of controls. The terms refer to multi engine aircraft but hew principles apply to al aircraft.
For my two bits worth, once the pilot failed to counter the yaw caused by propellor effects early in the roll and got the thing pointed at the trees there just wasn't enough airspace available to bank and fly out the gap in the trees. . |
I initially though the aircraft had drifted left but the crash site appears to be at the stand of trees right next to the road. See the photo here - https://aviation-safety.net/database...?id=20230708-0
I can't decide if the takeoff started in the NW corner of the field or if it started at the West of the field close to the road. Starting close to the road would have required a takeoff path that curved right both on the ground and in the air. (See post 12 for view of the field.) |
Originally Posted by atakacs
(Post 11465067)
No expertise here but is this the full extent of flaps on the AN-2 ?
i cannot remember any out of ordinary large torque compensation , definitively not like a Spit or on the US types i would say . if , as reported, the pilot / owner and the airfield owner was in the left seat he would definitely know how to operate the thing out of there . The height of the grass on the video is something that would worry me however . On an unprepared runway if you have a wingtip touching the grass during lift off you will definitely alter course and you cannot control it aerodynamically . . |
Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
(Post 11466189)
if , as reported, the pilot / owner and the airfield owner was in the left seat he would definitely know how to operate the thing out of there .
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
(Post 11466189)
if , as reported, the pilot / owner and the airfield owner was in the left seat he would definitely know how to operate the thing out of there .
. |
Originally Posted by EXDAC
(Post 11466121)
I can't decide if the takeoff started in the NW corner of the field or if it started at the West of the field close to the road...
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....95e8a74f5f.jpg |
Originally Posted by andrasz
(Post 11466536)
Looking again at the video, map and the ASN photo, it appears that the takeoff was along the dashed line, with the A/C coming to rest where marked by the white arrow. By the look if it they were aiming straight for the trees...
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....95e8a74f5f.jpg |
...according Facebook and "Antonov 2 Sweden" there was some kind of lorry or truck meeting there. That could explain the Antonov 2 visit.
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Originally Posted by Ohrly
(Post 11466554)
Whereas going in a straight line down the field would have meant having to clear a much shorter line of trees, set further back from the field. ...
FP. |
Originally Posted by First_Principal
(Post 11467009)
The video suggests the path taken was downhill for at least part of the run, whereas I suspect by the look of the satellite image it may not be for the run you propose?
FP. NW corner of the field 339 ft High point 346 ft Just short of trees 334 ft I think the slope is exagerated in the video because of the long lens and the fact the the roadside vegetation intrudes into the field of view. There is not much doubt where the aircraft stopped and the starting point is reasonably well defined by the building in the background. |
Yes, I was just looking at the elevation profile when you posted. As it happens although the path was a little shorter Ohrly's suggestion may have worked out better:
From Google Earth, approx path taken incl elevation & length (in meters, sorry!): https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....2c52027761.png Path proposed: https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....20aeb0ba7e.png FP. |
The old Antonovs are truly amazing machines but I guess they do have limits like every aircraft. When I lived in Sweden there was an AN 2 based on a very short private strip not far from me . However it always had short grass and had a good clear take off run even though the strip was about 400 m with a road at one end. The the approach aids consisted of some faded planks painted black and white to indicate end of the runway.
I visit the Czech republic often and the local airfield has a resident for the skydiving club and it can be heard rumbling along most weekends. Its the only time I have seen an aircraft flying backwards too on a very windy day as it tried to climb to jumping altitude. Close up they are really big aircraft and astonishingly 'agricultural' too but like AK47s and T34 tanks they do the job they were designed for really well , Amazingly short take off and landing and capable of a decent load for a single engine. even if it was a biplane that was designed post WW2 . I am no expert but they must come close to being the perfect skydiving platform aside from climb rate. Great fun to watch in operation and especially starting with that monster prop shrouded in clouds of smoke and noise. Such a shame the guy in the vidoe broke his in what was probably just a momentary abherration |
Friend was flying in Antarctica and came across an AN-2 and crew, was surprised to see a coal fired heater, with bags of coal, installed aft of the door with the chimney poking out the roof. Survival if forced down one assumes since neither spoke the others language.
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