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Originally Posted by ex-EGLL
(Post 11318714)
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Originally Posted by Rock the boat
Oops, if I offended you, I'm sorry.
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Aviation Herald Tuesday, Oct 25th 2022 09:11Z
"On Oct 24th 2022 Philippines Authorities as well as Korean Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport report, according to first preliminary investigation results a hydraulic failure had caused a brakes failure.
On Oct 25th 2022 it became known that the captain of the flight provided testimony that they suffered a hard touchdown on their second approach due to wind shear forcing them down, during the following go around a warning light regarding brakes came on. The crew therefore declared emergency, prepared for the emergency landing and performed a third approach in gusting winds and turbulence, a warning light regarding brakes pressure came on at the time of touch down and they could not slow down the aircraft." |
Just a query, mods
Since this is an ongoing and developing story with significant interest and comments, I am curious as to why the mods moved it from "Rumours and News"...... what are the criteria for this?
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Some great and prescient posts above. Particularly fdr and his assessment of nationality versus flying skill. Great pilots are made either naturally or with training or both regardless of origin. If you think the Koreans can’t fly have a look at their aerobatic team that currently knocks spots over all others. Nobody outwith the crew knows what really happened with this accident but in time honoured fashion people are prepared to instantly criticise from their armchairs before official investigation.
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Originally Posted by fdr
(Post 11319448)
[fill in the nationality] should not fly, as simple as that.
Does that stand for the Canadian A320 trying to land on 4 aircraft on a taxiway as well? Or the US flight crew that drove a B767 into the water off Houston spoiling the delivery time of Amazon Prime? How about... AF447? How about... the Rostov on Don B738? How about... worlds wonders doing a downwards G/A in an A320 that accelerated all the way down to 50AGL? How about a B737CL that taxies with a bit of swagger after a 4g landing in scrumpy country? How about a B777 forgetting to climb on a departure, How about a B777 retracting the gear on a G/A and settling onto the ground? American Airlines flight 2341? American Airlines flight 300? American Airlines flight 567? American Airlines flight 1586? American Airlines flight 331? etc, should we start on Delta, United, Lufthansa, Air France, Birdseed? Regardless of the cause of the most recent accident, I’m afraid the KAL record from the not that distant past is not the best. Getting shot down twice due to navigation errors a little further in the past doesn’t look good either. Like most airlines, it seems that the last 15 years have been fairly good. |
Originally Posted by fdr
(Post 11319547)
That would put them in a bad position without doubt.
Both T/Rs appear to be stowed, which is odd. The main doors if they are open is definitely indicating a Green system failure which is going to be a pain, but would have been manageable, assuming that the BSCU was working, and there were no other failures. The blue and yellow are the TR powers respectively for Left and right engines... and as they are not extended, on an overrun, and a very slow deceleration, that suggests the guys had a compound problem. The fact they landed on an airport suggests that it wasn't loss of all 3 hydraulics... so am thinking Green + BSCU (G/A Sensing failure) which gives open inner gear doors, no T/R's, no ground spoilers, and alternate brakes only without anti-skid. That would put the aircraft in the weeds in most cases, outside of maybe Edwards. Losing a HYD and another sensing system may suggest that the second landing was less than stellar, but, if no one died in this, am gonna give some latitude to the guys. The second landing may have some echoes of Iberia's -600... Going to be interesting to get the full report.... except it is CAAP land. KCASA will have more on it probably. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....eb0ad388fa.png There is a procedure for double LGCIU failure however this shouldn't contribute to a degradation of wheel braking systems. The accident report will make for enlightening reading. |
Originally Posted by fdr
(Post 11319448)
[fill in the nationality] should not fly, as simple as that.
Does that stand for the Canadian A320 trying to land on 4 aircraft on a taxiway as well? Or the US flight crew that drove a B767 into the water off Houston spoiling the delivery time of Amazon Prime? How about... AF447? How about... the Rostov on Don B738? How about... worlds wonders doing a downwards G/A in an A320 that accelerated all the way down to 50AGL? How about a B737CL that taxies with a bit of swagger after a 4g landing in scrumpy country? How about a B777 forgetting to climb on a departure, How about a B777 retracting the gear on a G/A and settling onto the ground? American Airlines flight 2341? American Airlines flight 300? American Airlines flight 567? American Airlines flight 1586? American Airlines flight 331? etc, should we start on Delta, United, Lufthansa, Air France, Birdseed? The MD11F that missed the runway at Ted Stevens 2 times, having got to close to 360 kts at 3000' on the arrival into FAA airspace? With a constant litany of "WHOOP, WHOOP, PULL UP", counting those was tedious. Apparently the FAA licensed foreign pilot never bothered to read §91.117. What got me on that was, when he got to 1 nm final with a bit of flap, no gear and doing 260kts, @ 800'AGL, he finally decided to do a.... something, I know not what. It was best described as a wobbly RH wiggle to return to the same place in space, at same configuration, speed, and altitude, and then finally did a formal go around. Same guy decided to take off with all 3 IRS' with warnings on check position, and lost all nav functions when he hit the go bar. KAL is an interesting place, it has some of the best engineers on the planet. It does have some institutional issues with a punitive culture, which is in keeping with being in a state of war for 70 years, so, they take punishment to a different level to what the west is used to. There are some really good Korean pilots out there, a couple of the best are now dead, but they were brilliant. There are some that would stand their ground anywhere in the world, and do. There have been some excellent foreign pilots there, and there were some that used P-51 pretty enthusiastically. A number of foreigners were treated poorly by KAL, but not that much differently to how KAL treated Koreans, other than those that had F-5A time... You might be surprised by the statistics of events/nationality, and the absolutely dumb as dog dirt events that were done by [insert nationality]'s. As far as this crew goes, I would think it prudent to hold off until more information is at hand before commenting on a given nationality's competency. Remember, it wasn't Indonesians or Ethiopians that designed the B/S system that ended up killing 346 people On saving the day, there is one particular case where that certainly is a true statement, involves Stuart AFB. KAL additionally had a number of events where the decision of the PIC of non Korean nationality took a lot of effort to be swallowed. The best helicopter pilots I ever flew with were Japanese, Japanese, French and Australian, in that order. The most impressive CRM I have ever evaluated was by a Russian pilot. The most beautiful set of hands I have ever seen fly an aircraft were attached to an Ethiopian, one who was also well known in the system, and who on entry into a room could make those red necked pilots that spent their time talking about skin colour fawn obsequiously, they had been fortunate to have this gifted man do instruction on their jumbo's. I had the previlidge of flying with Bob Hoover and Bob Love in a T28 and P51 on the same day, to have done training with "airbum" in his Pitts, and the Ethiopian landed a B744 in interesting conditions into JFK that were more impressive. The best TRI I have ever flown with was an Indian... the most knowledgable pilot I have ever worked with on aircraft technical matters was an Iranian. You are welcome to your opinion, I think there is more to see when eyes are open. :) Thank you. |
Originally Posted by fdr
(Post 11319448)
[fill in the nationality] should not fly, as simple as that
And thanks for the interesting posts on the Lauda accident, tdracer and fdr. |
Originally Posted by rock-the-boat
(Post 11319548)
I wonder if anybody understands what this crew is facing not just today or this week but potentially for the remainder of their lives.
We expect pilots/controllers/engineers/[insert profession here] to push the limits on performance, weather, costs. If one makes a safety call, eg a diversion, the response is often “why, it would have been fine”. Yet if something goes wrong, it is “how could you have done this”. You can never prove the safety call was “necessary”, i.e. that there would have been an accident, and you can never prove that pressure caused an (in hindsight) poor choice. And yet we pick on individuals who make hard calls. |
Originally Posted by slast
(Post 11319642)
Since this is an ongoing and developing story with significant interest and comments, I am curious as to why the mods moved it from "Rumours and News"...... what are the criteria for this?
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Originally Posted by safetypee
(Post 11319539)
“RPVM can get pretty flooded in storms, braking action can be pretty low. The runway is crowned, but not grooved and has no PFC overlay. If there is a cross wind and heavy rain there can be ponding.”
#8 fdr “always a black hole - not unknown, at night, to have no ILS with no VASIS/PAPI ..... always fun in a widebody. Always briefed "slippery when dry" #14 GBS Not questioning the accuracy of this information, but from where does it originate? This appears to be classic local knowledge, or learned from experience, informal communication, yet most valuable in judging both the interpretation of published data, and adjustments in assessing local context - weather, runway, aircraft state, etc. |
T/R
I understand that dispatch with a T/R inop is an AD item but when the flight time is only 4.5 hours the weather must have been known… why dispatch this particular aircraft with a duff T/R to a challenging destination with appalling weather?
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There hasn't been an ILS in Cebu for a number of years, VOR and RNAV (GNSS) available for 04 and 22 with minimums a couple of hundred feet higher than a precision approach.
Two approaches, 13 minutes apart, followed by 40 minutes holding and then the third and last approach. |
Originally Posted by grizzled
(Post 11319787)
Perhaps it was moved to the "accidents" forum because it was an accident....
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Originally Posted by grizzled
(Post 11319787)
Perhaps it was moved to the "accidents" forum because it was an accident....
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I moved the thread from R&N to A&CC. I left an expiring link to it's location in the new forum. When it happened it was news. It'll fade from being news and still be an accident. If it's news, posters may post in R&N. If it's an accident, it'll be moved to A&CC. Accidents in the news may also be posted directly to the A&CC forum. If readers are interested in accidents and close calls, they are invited to read in that forum.
What we're working away from is an accident, which resides in R&N, being updated there (like accident report much later), where the update is not a rumour nor news, it's just an update on an accident. |
Well said!
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Tdracer…I learn something every time I read one of your posts.
fdr - I nominate you for “post of the year.” I am currently flying a Boeingsaurus, but spent nearly two decades on the ‘Busses. I really enjoyed the Airbus, especially the 330 but they certainly were sophisticated aircraft. Not suggesting any shortcomings with the KA crew, but we had a few failures of the ground spoilers to deploy and the reversers to arm when flying on very slippery runways - especially following a very smooth touchdown. Something I rarely had to worry about. If I remember correctly, our procedure was to manually deploy the spoilers that would then send a secondary signal to allow the reversers to deploy. Does this ring any bells? Been quite a few years. |
Originally Posted by YRP
(Post 11319769)
This is something that is distressing about our society.
We expect pilots/controllers/engineers/[insert profession here] to push the limits on performance, weather, costs. If one makes a safety call, eg a diversion, the response is often “why, it would have been fine”. Yet if something goes wrong, it is “how could you have done this”. You can never prove the safety call was “necessary”, i.e. that there would have been an accident, and you can never prove that pressure caused an (in hindsight) poor choice. And yet we pick on individuals who make hard calls. Flight crew make decisions in dynamic, time limited situations, and may have conflicting inputs, and too frequently under a pathological management system that does not want any adverse condition to occur or be reported. For every bad event that occurs where a crew get criticized justly or unjustly, there are tens of thousands of the same family of events that are being managed usually with crews of corresponding competency. Stuff happens, humans remain the means to cope with matters that may not be preprogrammed. Our failures are pretty darned obvious, successes less so unless in very unusual circumstances. |
BBC news are saying the pax were taken to local hotels, which I find odd if Cebu was the destination!
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Pilot DAR, since I'm the one who started this particular bit of thread drift, I thank you for the clarification!
Steve |
Originally Posted by 212man
(Post 11320172)
BBC news are saying the pax were taken to local hotels, which I find odd if Cebu was the destination!
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Who’s going to write the final report? If CAAP does, chances are it’ll make for comical reading with several eye roll moments.
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Originally Posted by 212man
(Post 11320172)
BBC news are saying the pax were taken to local hotels, which I find odd if Cebu was the destination!
As for the assumption that the pilot paintied himself in a corner…….We don’t know what the weather was during the decision for the second approach. But if it was reasonable with Manila still as an alternate(which subsequently was no longer able to be an alternate due to performance issues related to damage) he could have been presented with a situation where a very bad landing attempt reduced the options to mediocre airports. That is the frequent problem with alternates…….it assumes an aircraft with no performance degradation and minimal fuel. There was a carrier with a CRJ in my country that encountered a situation of requiring to divert due to weather with flaps stuck at full. They didn’t have much fuel when they landed. |
Where else would they be taken for the night? |
According to a passenger on reddit or avherald, carry-ons were mostly left behind and Korean could not get on the plane to remove them - so many/most passengers had no passports to go through customs, thus stuck in hotels until they got their passports and went through customs.
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Originally Posted by fdr
(Post 11319448)
[fill in the nationality] should not fly, as simple as that.
Does that stand for the Canadian A320 trying to land on 4 aircraft on a taxiway as well? Or the US flight crew that drove a B767 into the water off Houston spoiling the delivery time of Amazon Prime? How about... AF447? How about... the Rostov on Don B738? How about... worlds wonders doing a downwards G/A in an A320 that accelerated all the way down to 50AGL? How about a B737CL that taxies with a bit of swagger after a 4g landing in scrumpy country? How about a B777 forgetting to climb on a departure, How about a B777 retracting the gear on a G/A and settling onto the ground? American Airlines flight 2341? American Airlines flight 300? American Airlines flight 567? American Airlines flight 1586? American Airlines flight 331? etc, should we start on Delta, United, Lufthansa, Air France, Birdseed? The MD11F that missed the runway at Ted Stevens 2 times, having got to close to 360 kts at 3000' on the arrival into FAA airspace? With a constant litany of "WHOOP, WHOOP, PULL UP", counting those was tedious. Apparently the FAA licensed foreign pilot never bothered to read §91.117. What got me on that was, when he got to 1 nm final with a bit of flap, no gear and doing 260kts, @ 800'AGL, he finally decided to do a.... something, I know not what. It was best described as a wobbly RH wiggle to return to the same place in space, at same configuration, speed, and altitude, and then finally did a formal go around. Same guy decided to take off with all 3 IRS' with warnings on check position, and lost all nav functions when he hit the go bar. KAL is an interesting place, it has some of the best engineers on the planet. It does have some institutional issues with a punitive culture, which is in keeping with being in a state of war for 70 years, so, they take punishment to a different level to what the west is used to. There are some really good Korean pilots out there, a couple of the best are now dead, but they were brilliant. There are some that would stand their ground anywhere in the world, and do. There have been some excellent foreign pilots there, and there were some that used P-51 pretty enthusiastically. A number of foreigners were treated poorly by KAL, but not that much differently to how KAL treated Koreans, other than those that had F-5A time... You might be surprised by the statistics of events/nationality, and the absolutely dumb as dog dirt events that were done by [insert nationality]'s. As far as this crew goes, I would think it prudent to hold off until more information is at hand before commenting on a given nationality's competency. Remember, it wasn't Indonesians or Ethiopians that designed the B/S system that ended up killing 346 people On saving the day, there is one particular case where that certainly is a true statement, involves Stuart AFB. KAL additionally had a number of events where the decision of the PIC of non Korean nationality took a lot of effort to be swallowed. The best helicopter pilots I ever flew with were Japanese, Japanese, French and Australian, in that order. The most impressive CRM I have ever evaluated was by a Russian pilot. The most beautiful set of hands I have ever seen fly an aircraft were attached to an Ethiopian, one who was also well known in the system, and who on entry into a room could make those red necked pilots that spent their time talking about skin colour fawn obsequiously, they had been fortunate to have this gifted man do instruction on their jumbo's. I had the previlidge of flying with Bob Hoover and Bob Love in a T28 and P51 on the same day, to have done training with "airbum" in his Pitts, and the Ethiopian landed a B744 in interesting conditions into JFK that were more impressive. The best TRI I have ever flown with was an Indian... the most knowledgable pilot I have ever worked with on aircraft technical matters was an Iranian. You are welcome to your opinion, I think there is more to see when eyes are open. :) |
From the Chart Mactan Airport only 3310 x 45 meters runway, there might be rubber spot existed plus the fact the runway is grooved. To many factors but for this type of runway in Philippines this is not out of ordinary, hence, even its privately owned it has a lot of risk factor to be account for. As my own point of view, Factors are not just based on the Pilot performance its self but must be all accounted for including the airport. It seem as i have check some website there not much to learn about the airport in Philippines as there is no report that is publish for the civil authority to be learned from it. If they were, these could have prevented. I'm sure the locals who is familiar with the Airport knows all the risk that was not published for other Airlines to study.
Hoping to wait for the investigation report to be publicly view in order to learned the cause of the incident. |
According to a passenger on reddit or avherald, carry-ons were mostly left behind and Korean could not get on the plane to remove them - so many/most passengers had no passports to go through customs, thus stuck in hotels until they got their passports and went through customs. |
Originally Posted by krismiler
(Post 11320881)
My passport stays on my person in an inside or front button up pocket when I travel. Replacing anything else is a breeze compared to getting a new passport in a foreign country.
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Originally Posted by 212man
(Post 11320376)
Wherever they were planning to go regardless of whether their aircraft went off the end of the runway - it wasn't a diversion to a strange airport! Probably more pleasant to be with family/friends/at home etc, than in some hotel room. Belongings can be brought later as if lost luggage.
Therefore, the hotel thing makes sense to me. |
Originally Posted by punkalouver
(Post 11321070)
When a foreign airline crashes at a tourist destination, there is a good chance that most of the passengers were foreigners planning on heading to hotels as a first stop
Therefore, the hotel thing makes sense to me. |
Originally Posted by 212man
(Post 11321183)
Yes - but their destination hotel, not a new one from the airline.
Back to aircraft details please. |
Hello FDR!
Thank you for enlightening me on the braking system logic of the Airbus A330 series. I did not know that nose strut compression was necessary for TR use, but I would think it would be a safeguard against a sudden deceleration causing the craft to slam down on its nosegear and possibly damaging same. The 737NG/MAX will autobrake as soon as the MLG wheels spin up past 60 knots. The airplane is prevented from impacting its nosegear after sudden deceleration by a redundant, failsafe system: two well-trained and proficient pilots applying aft elevator. We are AVIATORS, gentlemen! Let's not get so complacent that we allow system shortcomings to catch us in the weeds. Happily, no one was injured, but I might guess that the return Cebu-Inchon flight may have been cancelled or severely delayed. Your comment "lift up your feet" had me in stitches! Thank you for such an informative post! Fly Safe! |
Originally Posted by fdr
(Post 11319448)
[fill in the nationality] should not fly, as simple as that.
Does that stand for the Canadian A320 trying to land on 4 aircraft on a taxiway as well? Or the US flight crew that drove a B767 into the water off Houston spoiling the delivery time of Amazon Prime? How about... AF447? How about... the Rostov on Don B738? How about... worlds wonders doing a downwards G/A in an A320 that accelerated all the way down to 50AGL? How about a B737CL that taxies with a bit of swagger after a 4g landing in scrumpy country? How about a B777 forgetting to climb on a departure, How about a B777 retracting the gear on a G/A and settling onto the ground? American Airlines flight 2341? American Airlines flight 300? American Airlines flight 567? American Airlines flight 1586? American Airlines flight 331? etc, should we start on Delta, United, Lufthansa, Air France, Birdseed? The MD11F that missed the runway at Ted Stevens 2 times, having got to close to 360 kts at 3000' on the arrival into FAA airspace? With a constant litany of "WHOOP, WHOOP, PULL UP", counting those was tedious. Apparently the FAA licensed foreign pilot never bothered to read §91.117. What got me on that was, when he got to 1 nm final with a bit of flap, no gear and doing 260kts, @ 800'AGL, he finally decided to do a.... something, I know not what. It was best described as a wobbly RH wiggle to return to the same place in space, at same configuration, speed, and altitude, and then finally did a formal go around. Same guy decided to take off with all 3 IRS' with warnings on check position, and lost all nav functions when he hit the go bar. KAL is an interesting place, it has some of the best engineers on the planet. It does have some institutional issues with a punitive culture, which is in keeping with being in a state of war for 70 years, so, they take punishment to a different level to what the west is used to. There are some really good Korean pilots out there, a couple of the best are now dead, but they were brilliant. There are some that would stand their ground anywhere in the world, and do. There have been some excellent foreign pilots there, and there were some that used P-51 pretty enthusiastically. A number of foreigners were treated poorly by KAL, but not that much differently to how KAL treated Koreans, other than those that had F-5A time... You might be surprised by the statistics of events/nationality, and the absolutely dumb as dog dirt events that were done by [insert nationality]'s. As far as this crew goes, I would think it prudent to hold off until more information is at hand before commenting on a given nationality's competency. Remember, it wasn't Indonesians or Ethiopians that designed the B/S system that ended up killing 346 people On saving the day, there is one particular case where that certainly is a true statement, involves Stuart AFB. KAL additionally had a number of events where the decision of the PIC of non Korean nationality took a lot of effort to be swallowed. "The best helicopter pilots I ever flew with were Japanese, Japanese, French and Australian, in that order. The most impressive CRM I have ever evaluated was by a Russian pilot. The most beautiful set of hands I have ever seen fly an aircraft were attached to an Ethiopian, one who was also well known in the system, and who on entry into a room could make those red necked pilots that spent their time talking about skin colour fawn obsequiously, they had been fortunate to have this gifted man do instruction on their jumbo's. I had the previlidge of flying with Bob Hoover and Bob Love in a T28 and P51 on the same day, to have done training with "airbum" in his Pitts, and the Ethiopian landed a B744 in interesting conditions into JFK that were more impressive. The best TRI I have ever flown with was an Indian... the most knowledgable pilot I have ever worked with on aircraft technical matters was an Iranian. You are welcome to your opinion, I think there is more to see when eyes are open. :) Well, said, FDR! Your depth of knowledge and wealth of experience are commendable. |
Originally Posted by Heavy D
(Post 11321931)
Hello FDR!
Thank you for enlightening me on the braking system logic of the Airbus A330 series. I did not know that nose strut compression was necessary for TR use, but I would think it would be a safeguard against a sudden deceleration causing the craft to slam down on its nosegear and possibly damaging same. The 737NG/MAX will autobrake as soon as the MLG wheels spin up past 60 knots. The airplane is prevented from impacting its nosegear after sudden deceleration by a redundant, failsafe system: two well-trained and proficient pilots applying aft elevator. We are AVIATORS, gentlemen! Let's not get so complacent that we allow system shortcomings to catch us in the weeds. Happily, no one was injured, but I might guess that the return Cebu-Inchon flight may have been cancelled or severely delayed. Your comment "lift up your feet" had me in stitches! Thank you for such an informative post! Fly Safe! The NLG controls the autobrake max rate application, the rate is modulated at a lower rate until the NLG strut compression occurs. Stops wrinkling tubes .. The TR logic comes from the MLG untilt sensors. And I will stand corrected, but any one of those being made will permit TR to be used by the selection of TR by the flight crew. Sorry if that was suggesting otherwise. |
Originally Posted by StudentPilot479
(Post 11320541)
According to a passenger on reddit or avherald, carry-ons were mostly left behind
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Originally Posted by rock-the-boat
(Post 11319548)
I'm often surprised by the lack of empathy when topics such as this make their way onto the forum. I wonder if it's a matter of psychological relief, knowing statistically accidents will happen and that it was not to “me” that it happened? Could it be a deluded belief that there are no circumstances that provide a degree of complexity where I would run out of ideas before I run out of fuel?
There is no empirical evidence to show that this crew was less well trained or less competent than any contributor to this forum. Until we understand the complexity of the situation that this crew faced perhaps we should leave it at that. Nowadays, there is a whole extra raft of on-line tests one has to pass - maths, verbal comprehension and IQ type pattern recognition - both written and CBT style, along with telephone pre-interviews, leading to recruitment days with group exercises etc, before one gets anywhere near the head office interview room or the Sim test. Once employed, there is CRM training, and accident analysis leading to specific focussed training, along with regular multiple system failure scenarios in our recurrent Sims. As far as poor weather is concerned, do pilots not still read the NOTAMS and Wx for their destination and alternate airfields during their pre-flight briefing, and fuel their aircraft accordingly? So I think we could be forgiven for thinking that pilots should be getting ever more competent and well trained as time goes by, and this could be why there is such mystification, and perhaps even outrage, when "simple" accidents like this continue to happen? |
Originally Posted by Uplinker
(Post 11329637)
Years ago; to get an airline pilot job required an ATPL, a face to face interview with the Chief Pilot, and a SIM check.
Nowadays, there is a whole extra raft of on-line tests one has to pass - maths, verbal comprehension and IQ type pattern recognition - both written and CBT style, along with telephone pre-interviews, leading to recruitment days with group exercises etc, before one gets anywhere near the head office interview room or the Sim test. Once employed, there is CRM training, and accident analysis leading to specific focussed training, along with regular multiple system failure scenarios in our recurrent Sims. As far as poor weather is concerned, do pilots not still read the NOTAMS and Wx for their destination and alternate airfields during their pre-flight briefing, and fuel their aircraft accordingly? So I think we could be forgiven for thinking that pilots should be getting ever more competent and well trained as time goes by, and this could be why there is such mystification, and perhaps even outrage, when "simple" accidents like this continue to happen? |
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