Originally Posted by 172_driver
(Post 11292885)
Individual drills?
By the way: I just looked up the loss-of-pressurisation followed by emergency descent checklist of the plane I fly today - also a 500 series Cessna but different model from the accident aircraft: Cessna lists "communicate with ATC" as item number 10 on the list. And regarding "turning away from the airways" before starting the emergency descent: This is not done in Europe since a long time. And makes little sense because one after the other the countries in Europe are getting rid of their airway systems altogether. With all planes flying between waypoints on individual tracks. |
Judging from posts here it sounds as if the Rapid Depressurisation and Emergency Descent checklists have not changed in recent years. But those checklists originated many decades ago when high altitude civilian air traffic was very much lighter than today's. The chances of collision resulting from an uncoordinated rapid descent in those years were probably deemed to be infinitesimally small, and therefore acceptable. Perhaps that's no longer a valid deduction.
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Anyone knows how long a descend from 36000 feet to 10000 feet takes with speedbrakes in a 551? My gues is <10 minutes. So before a single pilot crawls to the passenger compartment thats what you first do.
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Why the BFU?
According to news sites, the German BFU will anaylse the accident. Does anybody know why? This wasn't in German airspace, and the aircraft has an Austrian registration, so they shouldn't normally be the state to institute the investigation. The operator is German, but in order of preference, according to ICAO Annex 13, that comes third after the state of registry.
Cheers, Bernd |
Isn't BFU entitled to initiate investigations whenever they feel it might be interesting to them? There is a german owner, PIC, destination, base and all occupants are german to start with.
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Originally Posted by Less Hair
(Post 11292993)
Isn't BFU entitled to initiate investigations whenever they feel it might be interesting to them? There is a german owner, PIC, destination, base and all occupants are german to start with.
5.1 The State of Occurrence shall institute an investigation [...] 5.1.2 If the The State of Occurrence does not institute [...] an investigation, [...] the State of Registry or, in the following order, the State of the Operator, the State of Design or the State Manufacture [...] should institute and conduct the investigation [...] Cheers, Bernd |
In fact it's a moot point as to where the "State of Occurrence" was - the occurrence, for the purpose of Annex 13 being the death of those on board. That could well have happened over Germany.
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Originally Posted by EDLB
(Post 11292972)
Anyone knows how long a descend from 36000 feet to 10000 feet takes with speedbrakes in a 551?
News reports are just out that the wreckage has been located. And it was confirmed that the aircraft was not equipped with either FDR or CVR. That's going to be a difficult investigation. |
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
(Post 11293008)
In fact it's a moot point as to where the "State of Occurrence" was - the occurrence, for the purpose of Annex 13 being the death of those on board. That could well have happened over Germany.
Is there precedent that the location of the deaths was taken as the State of Occurrence instead of the subsequent crash site? I can't remember any accident where that was the case, but I might be wrong. Cheers, Bernd |
Originally Posted by bsieker
(Post 11293022)
An accident is signified by either substantial damage to the aircraft or the death or serious injury of occupants. Since the exact location of the deaths cannot be determined a priori, I don't think anyone would disagree that the location of the accident is taken to be the crash site in this case.
(*) REGULATION (EU) No 996/2010 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2010:295:0035:0050:EN:PDF |
Even if individual drills are used, these are based on the manufacturer's checklists and/or recommendations. And I am pretty much convinced (or more precisely: 100 percent certain) that there is no manufacturer of pressurised aircraft and no training provider who does not put "don oxygen masks" on top of every checklist related to pressurisation problems. But no, there are checklists that involve pressurisation that don't have memory items and don't instruct you to put the mask on. On the 737 a dual pack trip off means your cabin altitude will increase at leakage rate. An unscheduled pressurisation change tells you to increase thrust to ensure air supply to the cabin. None explicitly states where and when to put the mask on. Press. problems can come in different shapes and forms. |
Originally Posted by EDLB
(Post 11292778)
How long may it take to estabish communication with ATC? 1 minute, easy may be more. With 30 seconds of usable conscience at 30+ thousand feet if things go really wrong with fast dropping cabin altitude that is a Helios 522 recipe.
EatMyShorts had it exactly right. Don masks Establish communication Emergency descent |
Part of the preflight of the Citation series is to check the outside O2 over pressure relief valve or disk.
1. O2 may have been empty 2. O2 may have been turned off That can probably be verified if the wreckage is brought up. Anything else what the pilot may or may not have done is conjecture. |
Originally Posted by Sepp
(Post 11292478)
That is a very good point, that is. In our old 500, the theraputic oxy bottle was at the back of the cabin. 550s didn't have one.
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Originally Posted by givemewings
(Post 11293659)
... it surprises me that a portable bottle isn't standard equipment for any pressurised aircraft with a stand up pax cabin (CC background here)
Originally Posted by B2N2
(Post 11293648)
Anything else what the pilot may or may not have done is conjecture.
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SLF and engineer in aerospace industry.
The depressurization report was near Toledo. High ground in central Spain is at about 2500m. A direct line from Jerez de la Frontera to Cologne would take take you over the Pyrenees which has 3000m peaks. What happens if you have depressurisation whilst flying over high terrain? Could the thought of emergency decent above high terrain delay the decision making perhaps? What altitude would you be comfortable making an emergency descent to, a thousand feet above the highest terrain in the area? Do you pre-plan that emergency descent altitude if the flight plan takes you over high ground? Just curious. |
Minimum safe altitude is charted, the pilot doesn't have to guess. 1000ft above the Pyrenees would put you around 11000ft which should be OK for as long as it takes to get somewhere with a lower MSA.
In areas with very high terrain (much higher than Pyrenees), you usually have to plot escape routes in advance and satisfy the regulator before you'll be allowed to plan flights on those airways. For example L888 or Y1, Y2, Y3 in China. |
As far as I understand (too many contradicting reports), the final call came at top of climb with actual pressurization issues reported? Why didn't they descend right away? Did the pilot just black out during the call? Were they on masks already?
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Originally Posted by threep
(Post 11297084)
Do you pre-plan that emergency descent altitude if the flight plan takes you over high ground?
Terrain-safe charted altitudes in mountaineous areas provide 2000 ft obstacle clearance. |
Anything on recovery attempts?
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