It's time to stop flying the public in these old machines. As wonderful as they are, they are not safe for the transport of passengers. If you want to risk your life, go ahead. The risks when flying on one are worse than flying on a modern passenger plane and the public may not know that.
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Originally Posted by Wunwing
(Post 10585193)
cpngrog.
The blowing out statement suggests to me that they may have had fouled plugs on the engine. That would also explain why they didn't declare an emergency. On the Connie for one example, fouled/non firing plugs are an engine shutdown condition. Wunwing Regards, Grog |
I speculate that more than just fouled plugs or an straight forward engine shutdown are involved. Shutting down and securing one of four engines should not rattle experienced pilots. If an outboard engine were to have been on fire, and would not feather, the sense of urgency to get on the ground, coupled with a plane with lots of drag from the stopped prop would challenge most pilots, and turn an event from bad to worse. I have empathy for pilots watching the ground come up at them, and being unable to arrest a descent.
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Originally Posted by RickNRoll
(Post 10585206)
It's time to stop flying the public in these old machines. As wonderful as they are, they are not safe for the transport of passengers. If you want to risk your life, go ahead. The risks when flying on one are worse than flying on a modern passenger plane and the public may not know that.
I clearly understood the risks involved and these risks were again clearly spelt out before the flight. Passengers on these flights are not typical naive pax but are fully aware of the risks. |
Scanner audio of the first responders arriving at the scene.
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Originally Posted by capngrog
(Post 10585142)
Listening to the tower conversation with the B-17 (N90312CF), the pilot reported: " garbled ... number four engine. We'd like to return and blow it out". This sounds like there was a fire involved, but that should not have caused a control problem with the airplane unless the fire was well advanced. As to my speculation, well here goes. There may have been a massive oil leak in the No.4 engine resulting in rapid loss of engine oil pressure and ability to feather the propeller. The leaking oil may have caught fire. Inability to feather an outboard engine (in this case, no.4) would cause serious control problems. End of speculation.
Nine-O-Nine was a beautiful airplane, and its loss was a disaster. The loss of lives aboard was a tragedy. God bless. Grog |
Originally Posted by Wabbot1
(Post 10585089)
In that aerial photo, it looks to me like the rudder trim tab is set for a lot of left rudder. |
Originally Posted by eggplantwalking
(Post 10585236)
Complete loss of oil would not be a problem due to a broken line or an engine problem as the oil tank has a stand pipe of a few gallons of oil which is only available to the feather motor for feathering. All aircraft with the big round engines have this safety feature incorporated into the design and we regiously check the feathering system before every flight.
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NTSB Member Jennifer Homendy gives her initial brief in the first 12 minutes of this clip. As usual, not a lot of detail in this first on-scene presser.
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Originally Posted by Airbubba
(Post 10585252)
NTSB Member Jennifer Homendy gives her initial brief in the first 12 minutes of this clip. As usual, not a lot of detail in this first on-scene presser.
https://youtu.be/HZOSVXOwOgU |
Originally Posted by RickNRoll
(Post 10585206)
It's time to stop flying the public in these old machines. As wonderful as they are, they are not safe for the transport of passengers. If you want to risk your life, go ahead. The risks when flying on one are worse than flying on a modern passenger plane and the public may not know that.
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Originally Posted by filejw
(Post 10585264)
True but one detail is they hit an approach light stanchion then went off course into the deice facility tanks. Very sad...
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Listening to the ATC communication posted by Airbubba. When asked “why do you want to return?” it sounds very much to me like “fire (pause) number 4 engine. We’d like to return to the field and blow it out.” Also I’m surprised this hasn’t been mentioned yet, but looking at Google Maps satellite view of KBDL and figuring out from the news clips where it came to rest, that seems a long way off to the right of the runway, and very near the beginning. (We know they were using 6) ——————- Ok disregard - I hadn’t seen the bit about hitting the stanchion when I typed that. |
Originally Posted by Airbubba
(Post 10585269)
Actually at about 3:15 in the video she said that the plane impacted the instrument landing system stanchions. I presume she means the localizer antenna poles for runway 24.
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RIP to all who perished. This aircraft regularly flies overhead as it performs the circuit to KMHT often with a 51 or 24 in loose formation. It occasionally does a fly-by over KBED on way south and north - a regular in the NE US. Very sad.
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Originally Posted by RickNRoll
(Post 10585206)
It's time to stop flying the public in these old machines. As wonderful as they are, they are not safe for the transport of passengers. If you want to risk your life, go ahead. The risks when flying on one are worse than flying on a modern passenger plane and the public may not know that.
Are these warbirds in the experimental category? Is there a B-17 type rating even though there was never a civilian version (e.g. the C-130 and the L-382)? Are these rides Part 91? Or are they something else since money changes hands? Are they like the shoe selfie helo rides or are they more regulated? I'm guessing that there is no requirement for a CVR or FDR even though the plane carries 10 paying pax, has four engines and weighs over 40,000 pounds. |
I’ll speculate that if there was a fire, the tower would have seen the smoke inflight and rolled the trucks. It seems that there wasn’t any sense of urgency on the pilots or ATC’s part so perhaps the inflight fire scenario may not have occurred. |
Originally Posted by Airbubba
(Post 10585289)
Last year at an airshow my wife wanted to buy me a ride on one of these warbirds but I declined. Early in my aviation career I was nearly killed by a P-51 that cartwheeled on landing in a crosswind..
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T
Originally Posted by Chiefttp
(Post 10585295)
I’ll speculate that if there was a fire, the tower would have seen the smoke inflight and rolled the trucks. It seems that there wasn’t any sense of urgency on the pilots or ATC’s part so perhaps the inflight fire scenario may not have occurred. EAOA Mjb |
My only connection to 9-0-9 is that I used her markings on a model many moons ago.
Not that that amounts to a hill of beans - the human losses take priority, as will the search to find what broke. Damn.... |
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