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Seen it plenty of times where the downwind wing in a swept wing jet is allowed to drop at rotation due to the PF being slow or not anticipating. But this sounds like such a large lateral movement to end up that far off the centerline in a narrow body that you naturally feel there is more to the story than poor rotation technique. |
Originally Posted by Lord Farringdon
(Post 10445462)
LOL. Must be a near cousin of Lord Flasheart this guy.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....99cfdac94e.jpg "Captain Darling? Funny name for a guy isn't it? Last person I called darling was pregant twenty seconds later" |
Originally Posted by 737 Driver
(Post 10448799)
If it turn out that crew skill was a contributing factor, then that will be fair game for comment. However, there are other possible causes. In fact, it is entirely possible that crew skill kept this incident from becoming a hull loss. Why don't we hold judgement until there is at least a preliminary report?
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Pilot says it was an un-commanded roll
American A321 suffers un-commanded roll during takeoff incident
An American Airlines Airbus A321 experienced what a pilot called an “un-commanded” roll and struck runway equipment during takeoff on 10 April from New York John F Kennedy. The aircraft took off from the airport at about 20:40 local time, bound for Los Angeles as American flight 300. “When we departed… strong roll to the left… as we climbed out,” the pilot told air traffic controllers shortly after takeoff, according to an audio recording from LiveATC.net. “We were banking… Uncontrolled bank 45° to the left.” “Turbulence from another aircraft?” the pilot adds. “I don’t think so. There’s a good crosswind, but we had an un-commanded roll to the left as we rotated.” The pilot also tells controllers that the aircraft was at that point “flying great”, and he requests clearance to return to JFK, where the A321 landed without incident at 21:09. The US Federal Aviation Administration is investigating, it says. “The pilot reported that the Airbus A321 may have collided with an object during departure earlier in the evening,” the FAA tells FlightGlobal. “After the aircraft landed, workers discovered damage to the left wing, possibly caused by striking a runway sign and airport light.” American confirms in a statement to FlightGlobal that the aircraft “struck an object upon departure”, adding it is investigating the incident in |
The NTSB is going to take a look:
NTSB is investigating the April 10, 2019, accident at JFK International Airport, New York, involving an American Airlines A321, operating as American Airlines flight 300, which experienced a roll during takeoff and hit a runway distance marker with the left wingtip.
10:36 AM - 17 Apr 2019 |
Originally Posted by USN O6
(Post 10449709)
One of the best posts I've seen in these forums!
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Originally Posted by Airbubba
(Post 10449760)
The NTSB is going to take a look:
https://twitter.com/NTSB_Newsroom/st...68832875024394 " I was aboard this aircraft. The take off was fast, rather quick and felt short. Then we pitched down and banked right (left wing up) and then left (right wing up) and the back felt to skid out sideways, I was in the window seat just behind the left wing. Then it felt like the pilot pulled the aircraft up manually. He continued to make very strong left and right banks while in the air before we circled back to JFK. He made an announcement that we had a major computer failure, but that he had control of the airplane and that we'll be making an emergency landing. I watched the metal flap above the wind the whole 43 mins we were in the air. The flight attendants went to the exit rows and said "this is not a drill" can you open the emergency doors to the passengers. I want to hear the audio and see the faa report. If anyone knows how long or where to look for this information that would be greatly appreciated. Thank you " |
The passenger's description sounds a lot like the recent BA incident at Gibraltar.
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https://www.cbsnews.com/news/america...irst-reported/
A close call for American Airlines Flight 300 at New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport now appears far worse than first reported. Sources tell CBS News the Airbus with 102 passengers and eight crew on board "nearly crashed" last week when the wing scraped the ground and hit a sign and light pole during takeoff. "We were banking, uncontrolled bank 45 degrees to the left," a pilot could be heard saying on the air traffic control audio of the incident. "Turbulence from another aircraft?" "I don't think so. There's a good cross wind but we had an uncommanded roll to the left as we rotated," he responded. One source briefed on the incident told CBS News: "That was as close as anybody would ever want to come to crashing." According to people familiar with the ongoing investigation, preliminary indicators are that there was a "loss of control" on takeoff, reports CBS News correspondent Kris Van Cleave. The Airbus A321 took off around 8:40 p.m. on April 10, bound for Los Angeles. But just as the plane was beginning to lift off, it rolled to the left, causing the wing tip to scrape the ground. The wing then hit a runway sign and a light pole before pilots managed to regain control and continued the takeoff. The force of the impact bent the wing. The flight returned to JFK 28 minutes later with no injuries reported. American Airlines tells CBS News, the airline "is investigating this incident in coordination with federal authorities." The FAA is investigating and have not determined why the plane banked sharply at a critical moment of takeoff. The NTSB has requested data from the incident. After this report, the NTSB also announced a formal investigation, saying in the statement: "The FAA, American Airlines, and the Allied Pilots Association will be parties to the NTSB's investigation, and the BEA of France has designated an Accredited Representative as the state of design and manufacture of the airplane with Airbus as their technical advisor." |
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It can be seen that not only the wingtip dragged the ground, but even the aileron shows abrasion from being deflected to lift the wing. The absence of any earth around the abrasion spot suggests to me that it dragged pavement or concrete only. And the wing hit several things, not just one....
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More from the NTSB:
AA Flight 300: Team of 6, consisting of an investigator in charge & technical subject matter experts in vehicle recorders, flight ops, aircraft systems & performance assigned to investigation. NTSB not planning to send investigators to the scene, but will if/when needed. |
According to an audio recording form liveatc "we were banking... unconrolled bank 45° to the left."
this is so pathetic.. |
What's more pathetic are some Americans pilots in various sites and FB group blaming the aircraft. It's either the foreign aircraft or foreign pilots' fault.
Let them believe they're God's gift to aviation... |
Good demonstration of wing strength - hit a sign at ~150mph, with the thinnest part of the wing, only got a couple of dents and was still flyable.
|
Originally Posted by Banana Joe
(Post 10450254)
What's more pathetic are some Americans pilots in various sites and FB group blaming the aircraft. It's either the foreign aircraft or foreign pilots' fault.
Let them believe they're God's gift to aviation... |
Originally Posted by Pilot DAR
(Post 10450092)
And the wing hit several things, not just one....
Using the wing chord as a reference, they appear to be around 4 feet apart, which sounds about right. Hitting two separate items of airfield furniture would be particularly unfortunate, and it's not immediately obvious what a second one could have been. |
Originally Posted by Sailvi767
(Post 10450345)
It appears it was in fact a aircraft malfunction. More will come out in the next few days. |
Originally Posted by Banana Joe
(Post 10450254)
What's more pathetic are some Americans pilots in various sites and FB group blaming the aircraft. It's either the foreign aircraft or foreign pilots' fault.
Let them believe they're God's gift to aviation... |
Originally Posted by 737 Driver
(Post 10450412)
Take a stroll over to the Atlas Air 767 thread and see if you still believe this to be the case.
|
Originally Posted by Banana Joe
(Post 10450254)
What's more pathetic are some Americans pilots in various sites and FB group blaming the aircraft. It's either the foreign aircraft or foreign pilots' fault.
Let them believe they're God's gift to aviation... |
Wow. You can actually see the distance remaining marker wrapped around the wing.
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USA am TV news says wing tip scraped ground and a runway light is imbedded in the wing.
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Why are those distance remaining signs there in the first place? Certainly not because of an ICAO directive. |
Originally Posted by fox niner
(Post 10450455)
Why are those distance remaining signs there in the first place? Certainly not because of an ICAO directive.
Chapter 2. |
Originally Posted by dogsridewith
(Post 10450450)
USA am TV news says wing tip scraped ground and a runway light is imbedded in the wing.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....3337932aca.jpg |
Originally Posted by SeenItAll
(Post 10450423)
Banana: Just to note, "aircraft malfunction" can be due to some design fault, some structural or software failure, or perhaps shoddy maintenance. Calling the problem that is not tantamount to blaming Airbus. Indeed, the famous AA DC-10 crash out of ORD was not really due to any McDonnell Douglas fault, but improper technique used by AA engineers to replace the port engine. So cool your presumptive jets and wait for the investigation.
My point was that also with the Atlas Air there have been assumptions about the FO's ability without waiting for the preliminary report, because allegedly he was pushed by the HR dept thanks to his race. Many said he was also fired by TWA in the 90's. I call that, with all due respect, BS. |
Originally Posted by Banana Joe
(Post 10450507)
Many said he was also fired by TWA in the 90's. I call that, with all due respect, BS.
aterpster had the Atlas FO confused with the captain in the UPS 1354 crash and subsequently posted a correction:
Originally Posted by aterpster
(Post 10438605)
The F/O previously worked for TWA. As I understand it he left there in 1990.
Originally Posted by aterpster
(Post 10439739)
Then, I must have been given bad information. Do you know his age on the date of the accident?
EDIT: The person who had been let go by TWA was the captain of UPS 1354. Sorry for the confusion. |
On US centric forums.
|
What was the cause of the BA Airbus out of Gibraltar doing the " wing walk"?
Some months ago I was landing a 319 and it started doing that over the numbers. Wind was not a factor and I'm pretty sure I didn't start it. Almost went around before it settled down. Wondering if experienced Airbus pilots can chime in if they have had similar experiences. Kinda hard for me to believe, not knowing all the facts, that the JFK incident could have been pilot induced. |
From 19 years of personal experience as a captain on the A320, I can confidently state that 90%+ of the pilots I fly with don't put any crosswind correction in for the takeoff roll. On rotation with a strong crosswind, there is usually a rudder wag and quick correction as the nose comes up and the plane tries to simultaneoulsy roll away from the wind and weathervane into the wind. This fits what we know so far.
My inital instructor at Airbus told us to not use crosswind aileron inputs because the computers would take care of it and you didn't want to get spoiler extension. This was proved patently incorrect and it's now clearly spelled out in the FCOM. I had a new FO right out of IOE that could not land the plane. Upon discussing his difficulties, he said he was taught (at Airbus Miami) to never use cross-controls for landing. With some new knowlege and coaching, he was easily able to handle crosswinds. Again, I suspect there is some old, bad tribal knowledge still out there. I'd place a bet on this being a factor. |
NTSB has classified this as an accident. I understand they dispatched a Go Team of 6 to JFK.
We'll find out a lot in due course. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....7173f6e824.jpg |
Looking at quite a few of the recent events where aircraft are banking hard on DEP, I believe we are seeing the effects of reduced spacing on DEP, especially with similar aircraft. Spacing is far too close between similar variants.
I recently experienced a severe event, in an A321 behind an A320. About 60 seconds behind the A320, we had just rotated, when a hard right, followed by a hard left bank at about 300 feet. Felt like a vertical roller coaster as well. There have been several very similar events recently in the aviation news, with uncommanded bank at low altitudes, and I am just wondering if this reduced spacing is an issue. |
Originally Posted by Smythe
(Post 10450621)
Looking at quite a few of the recent events where aircraft are banking hard on DEP, I believe we are seeing the effects of reduced spacing on DEP, especially with similar aircraft. Spacing is far too close between similar variants.
I recently experienced a severe event, in an A321 behind an A320. About 60 seconds behind the A320, we had just rotated, when a hard right, followed by a hard left bank at about 300 feet. Felt like a vertical roller coaster as well. There have been several very similar events recently in the aviation news, with uncommanded bank at low altitudes, and I am just wondering if this reduced spacing is an issue. |
The take off was fast, rather quick and felt short. Then we pitched down and banked right (left wing up) and then left (right wing up) and the back felt to skid out sideways |
My inital instructor at Airbus told us to not use crosswind aileron inputs because the computers would take care of it and you didn't want to get spoiler extension. This was proved patently incorrect and it's now clearly spelled out in the FCOM. |
Originally Posted by Reluctant Bus Driver
(Post 10450561)
What was the cause of the BA Airbus out of Gibraltar doing the " wing walk"?
Some months ago I was landing a 319 and it started doing that over the numbers. Wind was not a factor and I'm pretty sure I didn't start it. Almost went around before it settled down. Wondering if experienced Airbus pilots can chime in if they have had similar experiences. Kinda hard for me to believe, not knowing all the facts, that the JFK incident could have been pilot induced. "I was aboard this aircraft. The take off was fast, rather quick and felt short. Then we pitched down and banked right (left wing up) and then left (right wing up) and the back felt to skid out sideways, I was in the window seat just behind the left wing. Then it felt like the pilot pulled the aircraft up manually. He continued to make very strong left and right banks while in the air before we circled back to JFK. He made an announcement that we had a major computer failure, but that he had control of the airplane and that we'll be making an emergency landing. I watched the metal flap (runway sign) above the win I'm agnostic as to 1) crosswind or 2) Airbus software glitch, combined perhaps with PIO in response or 3) wake turbulence or 4) something else. They have all occurred at one time or another, and it won't astound me if any particular one is identifed as the cause or a factor, eventually. |
Originally Posted by dogsridewith
(Post 10450450)
USA am TV news says wing tip scraped ground and a runway light is imbedded in the wing.
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
(Post 10450487)
Might be better to believe what JFK and the NTSB say.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....3337932aca.jpg "According to information The Aviation Herald received on Apr 12th 2019 ground tracks reveal the aircraft was dragging its left wing tip for quite some distance on the ground, the ground tracks even suggest the aircraft came close to ground loop. The aircraft and left wing tip became airborne just ahead of the runway sign, the left wing tip impacted the sign, parts of which became embedded in the left wing tip. The wing also sustained according damage to its underside near the wingtip. In the afternoon the FAA reported: "AMERICAN AIRLINES FLIGHT 300 AIRBUS 321 STRUCK RUNWAY SIGN AND AIRPORT LIGHT". The FAA reported no injuries and unknown damage to the aircraft." (So TV reported wrong component of airport stuck in the wing.) |
Originally Posted by dogsridewith
(Post 10450912)
From AV Herald article that was updated today:
"According to information The Aviation Herald received on Apr 12th 2019 ground tracks reveal the aircraft was dragging its left wing tip for quite some distance on the ground, the ground tracks even suggest the aircraft came close to ground loop. The aircraft and left wing tip became airborne just ahead of the runway sign, the left wing tip impacted the sign, parts of which became embedded in the left wing tip. The wing also sustained according damage to its underside near the wingtip. |
Originally Posted by AKAAB
(Post 10450572)
From 19 years of personal experience as a captain on the A320, I can confidently state that 90%+ of the pilots I fly with don't put any crosswind correction in for the takeoff roll. On rotation with a strong crosswind, there is usually a rudder wag and quick correction as the nose comes up and the plane tries to simultaneoulsy roll away from the wind and weathervane into the wind. This fits what we know so far.
My inital instructor at Airbus told us to not use crosswind aileron inputs because the computers would take care of it and you didn't want to get spoiler extension. This was proved patently incorrect and it's now clearly spelled out in the FCOM. I had a new FO right out of IOE that could not land the plane. Upon discussing his difficulties, he said he was taught (at Airbus Miami) to never use cross-controls for landing. With some new knowlege and coaching, he was easily able to handle crosswinds. Again, I suspect there is some old, bad tribal knowledge still out there. I'd place a bet on this being a factor. Pilot Flying | Takeoff Expanded (continued) At VR: • ROTATION . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15° THEN SRS - At VR, initiate the rotation to achieve a continuous rotation with a rate of about 3° per second, towards a pitch attitude of 15° (12.5° if one engine is failed). - Minimize the lateral inputs on the ground and during the rotation to avoid spoiler extension. - In strong crosswind conditions, small lateral stick inputs may be used, if necessary, to aim at maintaining wings level. |
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