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With his experience you jump at the chance of almost any free GA flying or right seat on a commercial flight to gather experience. But not as PIC on your Jack Jones on a night IFR flight in a semi capable aircraft with some poor unsuspecting soul sitting in the back. That’s basically manslaughter. |
Originally Posted by Mike Flynn
(Post 10419130)
And of course knowing his financial predicament Henderson knew he would not decline. When he handed the aircraft keys to Ibbotson that weekend it must have crossed his mind that he was encouraging and assisting Ibbotson to break the law. The agent has explained he assigned Henderson to carry out the charter. The lawyers will be beating a path to his door and given the sums involved this is going to be expensive. Looking at the wider picture ,we have as others pointed out earlier, the issue of jockey flights and other grey area charters. AOPA should be making a big fuss about this in the press to highlight how cowboy operations are undermining the genuine AOC companies. The concern is with illegal flights. Be it to take bird watchers to Scotland or a footballer to Cardiff. The 3 1/2-year sentence for Robert Murgatroyd is encouraging but will it deter the ‘chancer’ when they know that their illegal flight will not be discovered unless/until they have an accident ? |
Originally Posted by EESDL
(Post 10420446)
Can we stop perpetuating the concept of ‘grey area’ charters. The concern is with illegal flights. Be it to take bird watchers to Scotland or a footballer to Cardiff. The 3 1/2-year sentence for Robert Murgatroyd is encouraging but will it deter the ‘chancer’ when they know that their illegal flight will not be discovered unless/until they have an accident ? |
Originally Posted by justmaybe
(Post 10420502)
Interesting scenario revealed in latest AAIB report G-UFCO. The CAA aquiesence in cost sharing and Wingly type enterprises does in fact create a substantial grey area, and one that lends itself to exploitation.
In the Barton sentencing report this point emerged. Murgatroyd's insurance was void as he held a private pilot's licence and was not allowed to run commercial flights. So I guess the insurers would refuse to pay for the airframe loss. No doubt the same applies to the Ibbotson aircraft. |
Originally Posted by Mike Flynn
(Post 10421125)
In the Barton sentencing report this point emerged. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-47589932 So I guess the insurers would refuse to pay for the airframe loss. No doubt the same applies to the Ibbotson aircraft. |
I think you guys should open a new thread discussing legal, insurance issues and regulatory issues .
As far as Aviation professionals are concerned this is a clear case of a pilot having accepted to do a flight for which he was unqualified. Period. The rest is for the lawyers..and whether it was private or commercial ops is for the judge to determine in the end.. Can we prevent this from happening again . No. There are always 1% of people that want to bend the rules. Tightening the rules will not change that , just affect the 99% of us that do follow the rules... |
Originally Posted by Pittsextra
(Post 10421197)
Well RM is bankrupt andin prison the other guy is dead. One likely couldn't care less and the other is certain not to care less....
ATCwatcher, why should someone else do it? nothing stopping you starting any thread you think should be started, crack on. The legal/insurance/licensing issues etc are key elements to this thread, and undoubtedly will remain being discussed here whilst of interest to contributors. |
It’s fascinating that the owner of the airacrft has still not been identified? |
Its perfectly normal with N reg aircraft that are owned by none US citizens.
To be honest even European reg aircraft it can be a bit of a circular effort with several company's being setup and owned by each other in a circular fashion. There have been 747's abandoned in airports round the world where they have never found out who actually owned them to get them to remove them and pay the parking fee's. One is now a hotel in Arlanda. |
There’s an abandoned light aircraft (Cherokee?) at JER ... even had recent notices in tne local paper “seeking owner”. :) Been here for several years, apparently, a bil like the Jet Provost! Edit to the above: G-OSTU (AA5A Cheetah) was apparently sold about 10 years ago. The last known owner was reportedly a woman in UK who sold it to 'someone in Jersey'. This from the Jersey Evening Post, 19 Mar 19. |
Originally Posted by S-Works
(Post 10421689)
It’s fascinating that the owner of the airacrft has still not been identified? I suppose all interested parties are waiting for the Coroners verdict and the final report from AAIB before all manner of court summons start flying around and landing at various addresses of those involved in the whole process. Let`s see whether the Coroner will return a verdict of unlawful killing, accident / misadventure or contributed by neglect. |
All has been said in this thread and this type of 'illegal' flying has been going on for years to the knowledge of the CAA. Although they can amend and quote the rules 'til the cows (or lucky illegal flights) come home, nothing will change until they take effective enforcement action and hit the perps in the pocket or bang them up to rights before they cause an accident.
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Can we prevent this from happening again . No. There are always 1% of people that want to bend the rules. Tightening the rules will not change that , just affect the 99% of us that do follow the rules... Why is aviation not being held to the same compliance standards? For example standardised and compulsory risk assessment in all GA marketing. Obligatory availability of insurance documents, logbooks, maintenance records etc to any passenger irrespective of cost basis, together with easy to understand guides of what the consumer should be checking. Bottom line...nobody should need to get on any sort of aircraft without an clear and transparent understanding of risk. None of this is hard...other industries, just as complex, have been doing this for years. |
Heard yesterday from a colleague that there is an international group of journo's doing research into the grey charter market. They have pulled a years worth of flight data from euro control. And apparently it obvious which airframes are doing it and which pilots. And its not just a UK thing. And we are talking three figure numbers of flights per week inside EASA area.
He was picked up because he ferried an empty aircraft back to Germany on his CPL last year before he started doing multicrew job . Its not just N reg which is involved. |
BBC Wales are running this interesting story. There are calls for a series of flights in the weeks before the fatal crash which killed footballer Emiliano Sala to be investigated by regulators. The aviation trade body Air Charter Association told BBC Wales it believes there are grounds to investigate other flights linked to the £15m transfer. These carried Sala, his agent, Cardiff City officials and others between the UK and France in December and January. In an exclusive interview with BBC Wales, Dave Edwards, chief executive officer of the Air Charter Association (Baca), warned that the "underground growth" of illegal and so-called "grey" charter flights was undermining legitimate air charter companies and putting passengers at risk. These relate to flights which are not properly licensed under regulations governing aircraft and pilots. He said the organisation's concerns about the sector date back about seven years and that they hold regular meetings with both the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) and the European Union Aviation Safety Agency (Easa) to discuss the issue. Mr Edwards said: "The football agent has said on the record that they paid for a series of flights. "We've done some background research into all of those flights and we're concerned more than ever that all of them have the potential to have, certainly, questions to be asked about them, which is what we've pushed the CAA to be doing recently and also Easa because the origin of the flight was in France so that comes under (their) territory. "There's enough circumstantial evidence here that would make us push the authorities to do a full investigation into the background to ensure it was compliant." Baca has done its own research through the European air traffic control agency and established the various operators and pilots for the flights linked to the Sala deal. |
I suspect that might be the opening gambit in the UK side of things. It was a German reporter that spoke to my colleague but apparently there is French and Italian interest as well. .
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Yes . Here is the list of flights which are being investigated by the Air Charter Association :-
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I think we all know there are many unanswered questions regarding the crashed Malibu and if I was investigating Gamston airport would be top of my list. That is where the aircraft was based and it appears operated by David Henderson who the agents claim was their regular pilot. I suspect he was also involved in arranging flights for the McKays if we believe their press statements. I will be very surprised if we don’t see a CAA prosecution further down the line. Clearly many aircraft operators have been hiding behind N registration to operate in the grey zone. Europe appears quite lax in allowing N reg aircraft to be home based without returning to the USA. These aircraft are operating under what clearly is a flag of convenience. Across Asia to Japan and down to Australia and New Zealand this is not permitted. |
Channel Jets AOC
Originally Posted by korrol
(Post 10423553)
Yes . Here is the list of flights which are being investigated by the Air Charter Association :-
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Originally Posted by captainspeaking
(Post 10423609)
I don't understand why there is a problem with the Channel jets flights; they have a Guernsey AOC.
SND |
I assume the list is just a comprehensive coverage of all Sala-related flights. What emerges from under those stones may offer insight into all the related issues. |
If as has been suggested this has been raised and re-raised over a 7 year period what is so easy to investigate now that proved so difficult to get on top of before??
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The football "transfer window" may be closed, but business trips surely still have to be arranged as managers and football club scouts travel to watch potential transfer targets. After all the attention Cardiff City F.C. has attracted, one wonders how its manager and associated agents arrange their flights.
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Both planes were registered in America, which means they cannot be flown commercially
From report on BBC website referring to a/c used on some of the flights listed:
'Both planes were registered in America, which means they cannot be flown commercially in Europe without the express permission of US regulator, the Federal Aviation Authority, and the CAA. The flights were listed on flight plans, as non-commercial. BBC Wales has discovered that eight days after the plane carrying Sala crashed, one of these planes was de-registered in the US and re-registered as a Guernsey-based plane. It was then placed on the company's AOC.' |
oops! No surprise here, I suppose. The plot thickens nicely. Now it needs the authorities to devote the time, energy and manpower to follow up this ... and all the other cases. |
Originally Posted by parabatix
(Post 10423990)
From report on BBC website referring to a/c used on some of the flights listed:
'Both planes were registered in America, which means they cannot be flown commercially in Europe without the express permission of US regulator, the Federal Aviation Authority, and the CAA. The flights were listed on flight plans, as non-commercial. BBC Wales has discovered that eight days after the plane carrying Sala crashed, one of these planes was de-registered in the US and re-registered as a Guernsey-based plane. It was then placed on the company's AOC.' An attempt to cover the traces?? |
Originally Posted by Gurnard
(Post 10424061)
The aircraft concerned - Eclipse EA500 N531EA became 2-JEZA.
An attempt to cover the traces?? |
No, as mentioned in an earlier post, not OK for a US-registered aircraft to operate commercially under a Guernsey AOC, or at all if it is Part-91
Also, as Channel Jets is a Guernsey AOC, and Guernsey is non-UK and non-EU, they can't operate even a 2-REG aircraft commercially to/from UK or EU without a permit from the Authorities at both ends (e.g. a flight from France to UK would need a permit from both France and the UK) |
Originally Posted by Gurnard
(Post 10424061)
The aircraft concerned - Eclipse EA500 N531EA became 2-JEZA.
An attempt to cover the traces?? |
Originally Posted by korrol
(Post 10423553)
Yes . Here is the list of flights which are being investigated by the Air Charter Association :-
So therefore, no cost sharing on any of the jets listed here. |
Complex aircraft?
PA46 and PC12 are not complex aircraft. The term ‘complex motor-powered aircraft’ is defined in Regulation (EC) No 216/2008 as follows: “‘complex motor-powered aircraft’ shall mean: (i) an aeroplane:
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FAA rules are wobbly prop, wobbly gear and flaps. It's a tad more detailed than that (!) but them's the basics.
So a Piper Arrow is complex. |
Australia follows the same rules Sam. Retractable undercarriage and variable pitch prop ratings seem logical to me. |
BTW EASA is an Agency; FAA is an Administration and CAA is an Authority.
Sad I know but I thought I'd mention it:8 |
With regard to the Cardiff City incident this story gets more bizzare by the day. This from the Guardian. Willie McKay, who is no longer registered as a football agent but helped his son Mark complete the ill-fated Sala transfer, has been the subject of an investigation by South Wales police over claims he threatened to kill staff at the Premier League club in a dispute about who is liable for damages following the death of Sala in a plane crash In a brief statement the Welsh force said the investigation “has been transferred to the Metropolitan police service”. It is understood at least one of the alleged threats has been claimed to have occurred in London and that was confirmed in a statement from the Metropolitan police on Thursday. “We] have received an allegation of a possible public order offence that took place at Kendall Street, W2 on Friday 22 February,” a spokesperson said. “Officers from central area command unit are investigating. No arrests have been made at this time.” Kendall Street is in an upmarket part of London north of Hyde Park and 22 February was six days after Sala’s funeral in Argentina. Apart from the ill fated Malibu another N reg Malibu was also involved in the saga. After Sala had signed up to play for Cardiff City, his agent Mr N'Diaye was flown back to Nantes on 18 January by Lord George Porchester, who flies his own Piper Malibu plane under the company name Altaclara. The son of the Earl of Caernarfon, whose family seat is used as a filming location for TV's Downton Abbey, he holds a private pilot's licence. As the plane is registered in the US, it cannot be flown commercially in Europe and Lord Porchester can only fly passengers in the EU on a cost-sharing basis, not for reward. Lord Porchester has told BBC Wales he flew Mr N'Diaye as a "favour" for Willie McKay and did not receive any payment for the flight. "I've got my own aircraft and I flew that flight," he said. "There was no financial arrangement at all with anyone, it was a private flight." He added: "I've been pulled into this because I've done someone a favour."
N14EF is registered in Wilmington Deleware to Altaclara Aviation. The same company with Lord Porchester at the helm is registered in the UK. Their company description contains the following; Renting and leasing of air passenger transport equipment |
Originally Posted by Air Snoop
(Post 10425864)
BTW EASA is an Agency; FAA is an Administration and CAA is an Authority.
Sad I know but I thought I'd mention it:8 |
Altclara Aviation was only formed 11 months ago and appears to have only one US registered aircraft. I will be surpised if they are operating it for public transport without all the necessary documentation. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....eff33c59f.jpeg |
...nonetheless I can find nothing for this George Herbert (Lord Porchester fellow DOB 13 Oct 92) on the FAA database. It seems likely we have another illegal flight as he would require an FAA licence to fly his N reg outside the UK. There is a George E Herbert but wrong DOB.
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Originally Posted by oggers
(Post 10426002)
...nonetheless I can find nothing for this George Herbert (Lord Porchester fellow DOB 13 Oct 92) on the FAA database. It seems likely we have another illegal flight as he would require an FAA licence to fly his N reg outside the UK. There is a George E Herbert but wrong DOB.
Try, Jules Thin Crust Limited Company number 09880949: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...80949/officers And : https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...-a3455471.html And when he is not pulling lager or two and slapping Manuel around the kitchen, he might be taking a few of his diners on a jolley in his kite. Here is a picture of him: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...-a3455471.html |
BBC Wales website (referred to earlier) identifies G-KARE as one aircraft connected with these activities.
"The plane they flew on - a Pilatus PC-12 single engine aircraft with the registration G-KARE - is operated by a company called Flexifly Aircraft Hire Limited, based in Surrey and linked to a care home provider." Company details identify Dr. Karen Graham as a director, thus the registration probably relates to her name. She appears also to be connected with Graham Care Ltd. |
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