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https://cdn.iz.ru/sites/default/file...?itok=sT0ALn-F
(c) Moskva24/Lidia Shironina |
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Stalled in the turn? Increasing G against speed
The video is quite revealing..... |
Got fixated on following the planned line or avoiding going past the crowd line?
Dreadful. |
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Was it stalled or was it misjudgement? The entry and line followed suggested that high speed, a low level turning pass was planned. A family event was turned into a horrible one when the aircraft descended at least 10' lower than it was "safe". Only in Russia.
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When in doubt, roll out. Tightening the turn feels right, but is so wrong.
Hotel Tango. I agree. "Only in Russia". What nonsense. In the last of the videos, the pilot looks to have rolled right a couple times, to shallow his dive, and from the response, I think he thought he had it made. Hindsight 20/20. Just to say an air show emphasizes drama, and some risk above the normal is expected. Piltdown. In review, it appears closer than at first. It won't help the family, but the mistake was one that's been made before, with better results. I know nothing about the aircraft except to say it is one huge and heavy single. A similar? The Colonel who tried knife edge flight at Fairbanks, with similar results. In a B-52. |
Only in Russia. You have to admit that quite a few spectators go along just in the hope of witnessing something like this. |
Originally Posted by Concours77
(Post 9880622)
When in doubt, roll out. Tightening the turn feels right, but is so wrong.
The naive, easy, and deadly way to teach flying is as an extension of driving a car, with the addition of the "elevator" that moves you up and down. Not so. One of Wolfgang Langewiesche's high points in his book Stick and Rudder is his doing away with the word "elevator" for the control surface in questions. |
Here's some more interesting information about the craft
Interested persons should look up An-2 and North Korea. Not allowed to post relevant links, but wowie, they have a bunch of them and apparently well thought out plans to use them.
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Originally Posted by Concours77
(Post 9880622)
When in doubt, roll out. Tightening the turn feels right, but is so wrong.
Hotel Tango. I agree. "Only in Russia". What nonsense. In the last of the videos, the pilot looks to have rolled right a couple times, to shallow his dive, and from the response, I think he thought he had it made. Hindsight 20/20. Just to say an air show emphasizes drama, and some risk above the normal is expected. Piltdown. In review, it appears closer than at first. It won't help the family, but the mistake was one that's been made before, with better results. I know nothing about the aircraft except to say it is one huge and heavy single. A similar? The Colonel who tried knife edge flight at Fairbanks, with similar results. In a B-52. I find it hard to believe tha AN-2 was designed for acro--drag of brick and wings that don't inspire roll rate. |
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That was Lt Col Bud Holland at Spokane, WA Fairchild AFB. He was reentering the pattern, I believe. Wing/CV took a fall via General Court "dereliction of duty". |
The An-2 has never been designed to do aerobatics, even low key as done here, doing so at low level is definitively not recommended as reactions on the controls are slow and with inertia. ( I have flown it)
I am also doing presentations at airshows with an aircraft not designed for it. Better keep to low passes and tight turns , and not try to imitate stuff you see the Extra do, like here.. That said,another very sad day for the airshow community , and RIP to the pilot..:( |
A similar? The Colonel who tried knife edge flight at Fairbanks, with similar results. In a B-52. |
The North Koreans have 300 of these to deliver troops behind South Korean lines. Fabric covered, flying low and slow they are very difficult to detect. Even if airfields get knocked out they can still take off from roads or improvised strips.
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Rudder and aileron do not seem to be in a position to recover, even right before impact.
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Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
(Post 9880697)
That was Lt Col Bud Holland at Spokane, WA Fairchild AFB. He was reentering the pattern, I believe. Wing/CV took a fall via General Court "dereliction of duty".
I find it hard to believe tha AN-2 was designed for acro--drag of brick and wings that don't inspire roll rate. |
From my understanding the AN-2 is not cleared for aerobatics !!!
From the video that was either a barrel roll that went wrong and ended up as a split 'S' or an attempt at a split 'S' that still went badly wrong. Standing by to be corrected. |
Originally Posted by Above The Clouds
(Post 9880928)
From the video that was either a barrel roll that went wrong and ended up as a split 'S' or an attempt at a split 'S' that still went badly wrong.
Originally Posted by Metro man
(Post 9880860)
they can still take off from roads or improvised strips.
The funds are being raised to support the families of Dmitry Sukharev and Boris Tylevich - two pilots who tragically died in the accident during the airshow in Moscow on September 2, 2017. https://igor113.livejournal.com/889480.html |
Originally Posted by Vessbot
(Post 9880648)
100% correct. This is why it's important to learn (and teach) to think in terms of lift vector control. The ailerons aim it, the elevator makes you go where it's aimed, but only under a long list of provisos. Best to aim it away from the ground first, and ask questions later.
The naive, easy, and deadly way to teach flying is as an extension of driving a car, with the addition of the "elevator" that moves you up and down. Not so. One of Wolfgang Langewiesche's high points in his book Stick and Rudder is his doing away with the word "elevator" for the control surface in questions. |
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"Only in Russia..?" If only! Twenty seconds on YouTube would demonstrate how wrong that is.
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Originally Posted by Above The Clouds
(Post 9880928)
From my understanding the AN-2 is not cleared for aerobatics !!!
From the video that was either a barrel roll that went wrong and ended up as a split 'S' or an attempt at a split 'S' that still went badly wrong. Standing by to be corrected. Sundry thoughts: The pilot gets a G loading coming out of the loop, a slight unloading, then back to a G loading in the turn... Obvious aileron deflection in previous manoeuvres though no obvious aileron deflection in the turn and ground impact ? Or a spanner in the works perhaps... . |
Sorry guys, the comment "Only in Russia" relates to a series of clips on YouTube featuring the most amazing crashes, cock-ups, acts of stupidity and things requiring huge balls. Unlike this incident, many are also very amusing as well.
I'm amazed this comment has pulled so many people's chains though. |
And this is how it should look like:
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In Canada, a part of the requirements for an airshow reads:
Air show aerobatic manoeuvres conducted inside the aerobatic box that have a descending recovery with a pull or push and having a flight path which, when extended, would contact the primary spectator area will not be approved for inclusion in an air show. |
Originally Posted by Kulverstukas
(Post 9882053)
And this is how it should look like:
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Originally Posted by Above The Clouds
(Post 9880928)
From my understanding the AN-2 is not cleared for aerobatics !!!
From the video that was either a barrel roll that went wrong and ended up as a split 'S' or an attempt at a split 'S' that still went badly wrong. Standing by to be corrected. http://www.avialogs.com/en/aircraft/...2irengine.html "Acrobatic flights" are forbidden (page 79) and bank limitation in turn is 45 degrees (page 81). Laurence |
Originally Posted by l.garey
(Post 9883090)
According to the An-2 Flight Manual
4498 Flight Manual for An-2 Airplane with Ash-62IR Engine "Acrobatic flights" are forbidden (page 79) and bank limitation in turn is 45 degrees (page 81). Laurence |
Hmmm...
Now we see this aircraft in an aggressive side slip, a "duck walk", and a demonstration of "flying on the prop". This in an aircraft limited to 45 degrees of bank. I think from the crash video that the reason this flight ended badly is because it remained in the "maneuver" too long.... The example of a successful maneuver completion also showed the aircraft exceeding limits. Pushing certified limits is not acceptable. It sets a poor example, and should be discouraged. It is so sad the pilots died. It also was not necessary... "Only in.....anywhere". |
B2N2: I think most AN-2s were Polish built, so maybe this one was too. In any case I can't see that it would make much difference. If a Polish An-2 is limited to non-aerobatic 45 degree banks, than I imagine Russian ones would be too.
Laurence |
Originally Posted by l.garey
(Post 9883132)
B2N2: I think most AN-2s were Polish built, so maybe this one was too. In any case I can't see that it would make much difference. If a Polish An-2 is limited to non-aerobatic 45 degree banks, than I imagine Russian ones would be too.
Laurence At any rate, here in Oz at YBAF i watched Bob Hoover do some twin/single/no-engine aerobatic manoeuvres in a twin engine aircraft, and apparently with a medical written out by CASA just for the air show..:ooh: Seems air shows can legitimately have their own rules set out side of a flight manual. . |
apparently with a medical written out by CASA just for the air show |
Looking at the manoeuvres flown, I'm wondering whether if his altimeter was set 1 or 2hpa higher? The completed demonstration showed pretty low altitude when coming out of the descending turn, maybe 50 feet or so AGL.
If the pilot didn't set the barometer, then that difference would lead to the plane smacking into the ground.... |
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Might just be me seeing what i want to see or the changing camera angle, though it appears just before ground impact a little right rudder went in ?
Originally Posted by megan
(Post 9883483)
FB, two FAA people had it in for Bob Hoover, and grounded him on supposed medical grounds, this from observing one of his performances at an airshow, which they deemed to be sub par. When he came to Oz, Barry Diamond, ex Navy A-4 and then CASA, put Bob through the hoops and was unable to fault. Bob was given the OK then to perform. The FAA pair were subsequently hung, drawn and quartered, and Bob regained his FAA accreditation.
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FB:
"Might just be me seeing what i want to see or the changing camera angle, though it appears just before ground impact a little right rudder went in ?" I see that. Also visible is an emphatic yaw response, right. That even though the left wings are dragging. There is no (applied) Rudder visible at 20 feet AGL. NO Flaps. The airplane is not going to impress the audience with speed. Or slippery airframe. The max angle take off pays off at two body lengths? This aircraft in an air show, (given its size), could impress the crowd with a forward slip to a short landing. It has no problems shedding airspeed, and the attitude of a large a/c in an aggressive slip is something to see. Getting down and stopped quickly would be a finale to be be enjoyed... Is the aircraft placarded no flaps in slip? The actual maneuver leaves one mystified. What could have been the pilot's plan? |
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