Oh please... this conspiracy garbage is worse than Jet Blast. :rolleyes:

FedEx und UPS stop in Almaty (Kazakhstan) to take fuel. Avient wanted to stop in Bischkek enroute to Liège. What's wrong with that ?

We have to stop somewhere between PVG and Europe in order to have a decent payload.
Nothing strange from this side. I don't know how you jump to the conclusion that they were not carrying electronics like everybody else.

Be careful with that. When past V1 at MTOW your higher speed may exceed your braking capacity. The "extra" pavement is no longer an assurance of stopping before the end. You just keep rolling and rolling while standing on the brakes. :ooh:

very few people, the ones with their many own special techniques in the cockpit, ague that an abort beyond V1 can be done by use of thrust reverse only until speed is below V1 again, then start to add brakes and hope that enough runway is available.

Are we even sure that this AC was going to Liège ?
Some source are talking about Harare.
But the idea stays the same I guess ...

Final destination.....
 

I expect that CAA China would have granted traffic rights on the basis that final destination for this flight and cargo was Harare on a third/fourth freedom basis with a tech stop via Bishkek.

In reality I would imagine cargo was destined for Europe:ok:

Shangai to Harare via Biskhek...Hummm, doesnt sound so much plausible to me, cause in that supposed route much more southern fields goes suitable, but of course its only my personnal opinion...:rolleyes:

Having arrived back from Shanghai last night i can tell you that the current backlog of cargo in China is huge, this has been caused by airlines like Cathy etc etc taking freighters out of service during the slow down, then a huge pre-christmas boom in air cargo bookings.

This has led to freight agents chartering airliners and other airlines also chartering in hardware to try and shift the backlog at a hugely inflated price.

Space is at a premium at the moment so the chartering of aircraft ex China aint no mystery....still makes much better reading to speculate that the freight is illegal arms.

We've used Tashkent (Uzbekistan) in the past, also a very acceptable fuel stop with good facilities, delivering consumer electronics to EU.

A colleague was in PVG during that event and told me the MD11 rotated very late almost at the end of the runway and barely made it into the air-app 10ft.
Cargo shifting unlikely? I arrived once in Europe coming from PVG with all floor locks not up, my good luck was that the aft lower comp was completely full and the cargo only shifted a few cm, but banged itself up in the process of doing so. So I do not rule that out coming from these parts of the world.

Flying the 11 I have to say it is a challenge and needs excellent maintenance and highly proficient crews, both I would raise to question, considering the creative ways of the operator (Z Reg, British Comp etc....)

Good old boy died.
 

Shaun Sheble from Kingman,AZ was aboard that MD-11 and lost his life. I am
close to the family.

I cannot believe the conspiracy crap that some of you people espouse.
Every week last year we departed HKG MTOW and stopped in Karaganda, Kazakhstan for fuel uplift on the way to LUX.

cws
 

You might see fit to question the proficency of the crew involved because of their involvement with this operator but I can assure you that these people were highly skilled crew who knew the MD11 very well, as I knew them. I flew with them all and knew them well and it saddens me that people like you should attempt to question their ability at a time like this.
As for the rest of you, I question your abilities to think straight in times like this. If you knew anything of the cargo side of the industry you would not even question the reason for a tech stop in one of the 'stans en-route to Europe from the far east. If any of you had carried cargo from the far east you would also appreciate that at this time of year, everything comes in almost standard cardboard boxes that are so well built on pallets they almost make the pallet locks redundant, so 'cargo shifting' is not and never will be an issue. By all means question the operator and his past history and maybe the underhand methods he employs, but stay away from the crew, they were good friends and exceptional pilots who I had the pleasure to know and fly with and all had the ability to deal with 'situations' in a calm and proffesional manner. Our thoughts should be with their families at this time and we should be thankfull that the FAA and NTSB have become involved and that at the very least there will be answers to a few questions that otherwise would be kept from us.

Md11s Grounded
 

Any truth to the rumors the Chinese registered MD11s are now grounded pending the results of the accident investigation???

God there is some claptrap going on here. Get a life for Heaven's sake.

Bishkek is a most acceptable airport for a tech stop/crew change en route Far East to Europe. We used it on the 10 as well. We were carrying bottles of Beaujolais - I daresay it was laced with biotoxins aimed at the third world proletariat - failing that, it was just wine for the Far East.

It would be nice to ease up and consider that some hard working (everybody working for this company works hard) guys were killed doing their jobs.

Their families have the prospect of a Christmas without loved ones, even for the injured who will be scarred in more ways than physical.

Whatever Mr Smith does or doesn't do, believe me, his crews are grafters doing the best they can. I've never been so physically tired as when I flew for them. I just hope that fatigue was not a contributory factor.

There are independent professionals involved investigating this tragic accident. How about just letting them get on with it, without these ridiculous conspiracy theories.

If you are so engrossed in Machiavellian plots, write yourself a book and make a few bob - but leave this tragedy alone.

Well said, Sir.
Having stopped a few times in the 'stans for gravy, it seems to me perfectly normal, and a way to maximise payload.

You obviously have grasped the principles of Performance A - well done! :hmm:

The MD11 strikes again, what a surprise :rolleyes:

Crew Names
 

Does anyone have the crew names on this flight?? Thanks

Goose are you ok?

Avient said that they would replace all 10 by 11 (original plan was 330), do you think they should reconcider that ?

"The State Civil Aviation Administration denied yesterday that it has banned all MD-11 cargo aircrafts from flying."

Team work
 

Operating aircraft commercially requires a team of proficient professionals, both in the air and on the ground. We all rely on everyone to do their job properly. Some facts to consider.
It is not fair at this stage to speculate on the piloting abilities of the cockpit crew, let us wait for the CVR/FDR info.
This aircraft had been brought into service as a new type to the operator in a very short space of time, therefore the "on-the-job" experience was virtually zero.
The MD11F is a complicated aircraft to trim and load, with considerable differences to the DC10.
The American crew would have been used to slick, efficient dispatchers, relying on them to build and load the aircraft properly.
To quote a very well-used phrase "never ASSUME annything".

stilton opens his yap again and contributes less than nothing. What a surprise.

I wondered how long it would be before Stilton showed up. At this stage you have absolutely NO evidence whatsoever that the MD-11 is at fault with this one so until such a time that you do why don't you just shut the **** up.:yuk:

Since some folks see fit to speculate on the performance of the crew at a time when zero information is available to say what actually occurred, let me add the following:

I have no idea what happened leaving ZSPD, but I know first hand that at least one of the crew involved had demonstrated the ability to handle problems at high speeds on takeoff. My one and only high speed RTO in an MD-11 took place in 2008 with one of the 3 deceased in the left seat (I was in the IRO chair). Departing Conakry (not the longest runway on a hot day...) at somewhere north of 100 knots the plane shuddered a bit and the engine fail lights illuminated. He called for and performed a flawless RTO.

That was the tail end of a great week in Jo'Burg and Ghana together that I will never forget so long as I live. RIP Bro.

Have you ever been at Pudong airport? Besides Avient, UPS, FedEx, Alitalia Cargo, Lufthansa Cargo, Aeroflot, . . . there are other MD11F visitors, including China's own MD11F operators, all being properly serviced and loaded every day by well trained and experienced ramp crew. :ooh:

Quite. That about covers it.

Apparently there must be fears about moving buffalo off the runway and getting bogged down in the paddy fields . . .

Well, I know that even the best loading crew can f*ck up from time to time. I´ve seen cargo loaded on the wrong aircraft and only discovered on pushback and I know of an incident with a very reputable airline, where the loading crew didn´t obey the instructions and loaded 8 tons of luggage into the rear cargo hold of an A300 instead of distributing it as per load sheet. The result was that the aircraft was extremely tail heavy, the pilots, believing the load sheet, only noticed during rotation, but through pure luck and airmanship managed to get the aircraft airborne and landed at the destination barely avoiding a tailstrike.

q100
 

Well said q100, i was on that aircraft with you at Conakry, i was the LM. The Bro acted in a totally proffesional manner and i for one was glad that he did what he had to do! As for some of the crap that is being dispersed on here do these people really not have a life?.

Charter man,
What a load of crap! The American crew would have been used to slick, efficient.....Like you, a Brit I assume, go back and insure the load after you checked thru the entire loadsheet, then when you have time check that the overseas territories are running up to speed.
Been to Shanghai many times on MD-11 and I assure you the loading staff is efficient and professional. Rather than interfering with them, I make sure my American ass is ready for the next departure.

MD11? Loaded too far forward, maybe. But never loaded too far back. She'll pop a wheelie way before things get dangerous.

Happened to a friend of mine on a quick turn in KSEA. The rest of the crew went in the office during the loading, but he stayed in the RFO seat to grab a quick snooze.

He said as he closed his eyes he was looking at the lights of the ramp and cargo facility. Fell asleep, woke up and looked out to the moon and stars. No one had tethered the nose. Thankfully the tug was hooked up so the towbar kept him from ending up all the way on the tail....

That you KR? I'm pretty sure it was you with us that day....

I was very impressed both by the way you handled things (clueless ground crew, greedy "officials", stuck pallets, etc.) that day (I've had more enjoyable days...) and also by some of your recent replies on Avherald.com. Hope all's well with you these days and life after the G-Spot is treating you right.

And to answer your question, they do not.

T.

q100
 

Hi, it certainly is me, thanks for those words means a lot.. life sucks to be honest...despite what has happened am still trying to find another LM job but it all seems to be closed shop when so called mates are going to check things out for you, am working for handling agent at mo at LHR. Any ideas!!!!!!!
Bro gonna be missed sorely!

Huck, post #119:
[quote]MD11? Loaded too far forward, maybe. But never loaded too far back. She'll pop a wheelie way before things get dangerous.
[{quote]

I was just giving the aft loaded A300 as an example how even a normally excellent loading crew can f*ck up.
In any case, we don´t know yet enough facts about this accident to do anything except to speculate. But we can seperate total nonsense ideas from those which make some sense.

Well, it happened in Miami a few years ago: Cargo shifted on DC-8 just after take-off, it crashed and killed all 3 crew members. :sad:

Article: 3 Die in Fiery Crash of Cargo Plane - AP Online | HighBeam Research - FREE trial

Facts to consider
 

Wow guys - some raw nerves there.. I said they were facts to CONSIDER -not neccessarily what happened. My point is, never assume that everything is at is seems. If you have never checked the loading of the aircraft for yourself poina, you are either very lucky or very stupid.
If you always rely on others to have done their job perfectly, do not be surprised if one day you
A. Find the wrong load on the wrong aircraft (as I have)
B. Find the load has been loaded in completely the wrong order (as I have)
C. The load has not been checkweighed (as I have)
D. The shipper has lied about the weight and the handling agent hasn't checked (as I have)
E. The loadmaster has not checked the security of the load (as I have)
F. The loadsheet is completely wrong (as I have)
I have never been to Pudong, GlueBall, but I suspect it is pretty efficient in handling freighters so I am not pointing any fingers there, or suggesting they are "third world".
The fact is that the operator had very little experience of a new aircraft type, which is acknowledged by many contributors on this and other forums to be "challenging".
CM

Oh dear, sticks and stones :sad:



In any case killing the messenger will not change this Aircraft's continuing litany of disasters and miserable accident history.



When Fedex crashed in NRT earlier this year I said it would only be a matter of time before it happened again. Since then LH has had a hard landing in MEX with damage to the Aircraft and now Avient has crashed in China. I have never faulted the Pilots. They are blameless in my opinion.


They were given an unsafe piece of kit


The only thing that will fix the MD11 is to ground it.

TowerDog,
Just FYI, the link attached was for the Emery California accident, not the Fine Air Miami one that I think you meant?

Agree with your thoughts on shifting cargo though - BAD NEWS!

C o' G

Charter man,
You state the operator had little experience on MD-11 A/C.
Do you think they are flying it from Zimbabwe via internet?
The operators in question were 3 experienced American MD-11 pilots who you indicate need rather slick dispatching to operate competently.
FAR 91.1 states the pic is responsible for the safe operation of the A/C, so don't toot your horn about checking everything in your area of responsibility.
As for me 30+ years, 20,000+, 16,000+ pic, no accidents/incidents, 5000+MD-11
Must have been lucky!

Mass, Balance & Loading differences
 

Question for any experienced DC-10/ MD-11 Loadies.

Are there any 'gotchas' between the older/ newer variants? (Apart from Ground Stab awareness for both)

Never worked either type, so just interested.

C o' G