Don't hold your breath Finn47
Anybody ever seen a crash report by the Chinese authorities anywhere? |
#2 Rev deploy
I have had a scenario in the sim in which the #2 reverser deployed after v1, it was mid weight, 430 or so, and the machine was very difficult to manage, as the engine was producing full thrust, but was manageable. That far along in the take-off roll, if it had been a #2 fail it would have been reasonably easy to manage.
Not saying this happened, the design of the reverser system makes it very unlikely, but the way the aircraft failed to get fully airborne, it is not impossible. |
Early in the MD-11 production, there was a problem with #2 reverser coming unlocked, or not locking fully after retraction after landing. It was addressed by AD, IIRC.
I'm not speculating here, just following up Wrldwide. GB |
Do any of the current MD-11 pilots have any comments about SEPilots comment? I find them interesting - as they point to a few things which haven't been mentioned yet? Not that the points he raised should result in the accident in this scenario, but they are interesting points, non-the-less?
This thread has departed so far from the topic, we might as well discuss these points as well? (considering the :mad: swinging going on in the last few pages) |
Every speculation here starts with "I don't want to speculate".
So, here is mine - this is copy&paste of MK @Halifax. |
Fine Air 101 - Really?
Kingpilot,
Is there any further info on the Fine Air DC-8 accident. As far as most (me anyway!) understood, load shift was the primary cause? Many thanks, C o' G |
Cee of Gee
Read the report on the Fine Air DC8. The cause was determined to be a catalogue of loading errors by an unsupervised loading team resulting in an incorrectly loaded aircraft. The report is readily available on the internet. Then put your suggestion of a "load shift" to any experienced loadmaster and you will get a very short answer - where is the load going to shift to when the aircraft is fully loaded??!! :ugh: IF load shift was a factor, the aircraft would need to be half empty to start with and everyone assumes that the cause would be the load moving aft. On the MD11, an extremely nose heavy trim would in fact have the same effect on take off as the eyewitnesses describe having on the Avient MD11. By extremely nose heavy trim, I mean outside the envelope, and before you ask, if you mix lbs and kgs and lb inches and kg inches within the same weight and balance mechanism, without understanding the consequences, this WILL happen. Raises a lot more questions now doesnt it? The MD11 is not a DC10, it can be a lot more unforgiving and needs a lot more close attention to load sequencing and supervision. Too many people think of it as just a bigger DC10 and it isnt. How many DC10 Loadmasters have I seen transfer onto the MD11 and get caught out. To illustrate this point, do a web search of aircraft sitting on their tails and see how many of them are MD11's. In Avients case they only had the type for a week so you have to ask how much experience there was within the organistion on this type, excluding the flight deck crew who were highly experienced pilots on the MD11.
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SepPilot, you have posted this same diatribe on A.net quite
extensively. Give it a rest already. You have been proven many times, you are not a MD-11 pilot so stop spewing this crap!!! |
If you look at the Dragonair crash at HK, listed here ASN Aircraft accident McDonnell Douglas MD-11 B-150 Hong Kong-Chek Lap Kok International Airport (HKG) the final report took 5 years 3 months and that accident was in Hong Kong 2 years after the handover? |
SMOC
You are correct, sir. My bad.
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China Airlines B 150
sb sfo.
Having acknowledged the mistake, please edit post 189 to reflect the truth. |
Cee og Gee Wrote:
Is there any further info on the Fine Air DC-8 accident. In fact I personally can't think of a jet transport accident that has been caused by loadshift? Can anyone? CargoOne wrote: Every speculation here starts with "I don't want to speculate". So, here is mine - this is copy&paste of MK @Halifax. All this talk of the MD-11s safety record really has no place here, I believe this is the first hull loss to take place in the takeoff phase, so the MDs handling characteristics and accident record in approach and landing have absolutely no relevance. |
Kingpilot:
Ding ding ding!! You win the prize! This incident occurred during takeoff; a hull-loss first for the MD-11, and a fundamental truth which has been overlooked by some in this otherwise erudite debate viz. the MD-11's record. And takeoff mishaps of the sort that likely sponsored this particular tragedy aren't indigenous to any specific aircraft. Just sayin'. |
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Old school, new school, ne'er the twain shall meet
I put it that since pilots seem to be able to fly all other jetliners day in and day out without committing these same errors, either the MD-11 is much more difficult to fly than any other jetliner, or it attracts far more than its share of incompetent pilots. I think the former is far more likely. When the MD-11 was first introduced, the pilots that flew her generally came from years operating steam cockpits, DC-8, DC-10, all the earlier Boeing products, 70, 72, 73, and 74 classic, aircraft that demanded well rounded flying and handling skills. It was a given; if you had trouble flying an airplane to standard, you had no business being on the flight deck. Enter the Airbus family of products, designed to engineer the weakest link out of the system, the pilot. The follow on products from Seattle have had pretty much the same idea in mind, lots of industry concern these last years of degrading piloting skills due over reliance on automation. So, yes, there is an ever-growing group of pilots not competent enough to handle the MD-11, those who have cut their aviation teeth in a glass/automation environment. This is not meant as a criticism, merely a fact of life, these very same pilots are competent in the aircraft they currently fly. Not surprisingly, typing eighty words a minute is a required flying skill these days. Where this argument is concerned, the MD-11, although a glass machine with significant computer enhancement, does not have the extensive automated flight envelope protections of the more modern airliners. In other words, she still requires the exacting handling and airmanship skills of the earlier jets. What is surprising here, these pilots were old-school, and very experienced with the machine. |
I recall comments from an LTU captain some years ago in CMB, about the MD-11.
He mentioned that behind all the fancy glass displays was a multitude of electrical problems, and ....'the eleven hour flight from DUS was a veritable christmas tree of lights, red lights, yellow lights, we have them all indicating possible failures of one sort or another.' A year later brought forth a completely different comment from the same LTU captain however, now it was...'the christmas tree of failure lights are gone, she flies like a dream, we certainly like her now, not quite as nice as the TriStar I flew before, you understand, but still very nice' |
bugg smasher
What is surprising here, these pilots were old-school, and very experienced with the machine I prefer to read it with the word "surprising" replaced by the clause "of note". To me the skill of the pilots might relate to their knowlege and flying skills. However if a critical factor is one that is rare enough not to be included in their training, their ability to identify, assess and correct for it may be an issue. |
Actualy this is the second MD-11 accident on take-off. The first was a Korean Airlines in april 1999. Cargo shifting or weight problems are all possibilities but, you can check the ZFW and CG indications on the EICAS. An other factor to dial in is, the tail tank fuel managment. Wrong fuel distribution will degrade your T/O preformance!
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Actualy this is the second MD-11 accident on take-off. The first was a Korean Airlines in april 1999 Thanks for the info Foxhunter |
No doubts about the experience of the pilots. But in a cargo aircraft it is very difficult to check the work of the loadmaster and loading staff. What is the guaranty about their skill and knowledge? ( Zim registration ) Zero! A mistake in loading is so easy, most of these guys think it`s just a truck! So putting the aft cargo fwd and vice-versa is not a problem. Or just the cargo of another flight! I`ve seen it, and not only in Africa; in Europe, yes!
Maybe in this case you can just add lousy uncontrolled maintenance, unrespected duty times, and you have an accident! Not at all an MD-11 problem in this case. |
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