TNFlygirl crash analysis
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With respect, no autopilot acts on the yoke.
There are servos in the aircraft, which act on the control surface cables or turnbuckles as needed. The yoke follows these servos as they are connected to the same device.
It's semantics, but saying the AP acts on the yoke itself is factually incorrect.
I've had two autopilots in my Debonair, the first being a Brittain Acu-Trak II wing leveler, which would track Nav 2, and the second being a S-Tec 55X, which is fully coupled with electric trim. It took me a week of reading the manual, trying the simulator, and then flying with an instructor to learn how to drive the S-Tec. Now that I'm proficient, it's easy to use.
I can tell from her button pushing - she didn't know what she was doing with the Century 2000. I say that as the former Avionics Editor for both Private Pilot Magazine and Custom Planes Magazine - I'm familiar with the Century 2000.
The "big picture" here is she was behind the plane.
Yes, that's pretty much it. You have an indicator above it to show you where you are, trim wise.
Other than slow flight, I seldom if ever see my flight trim outside of +/- 3.
The "details" are she was not keeping up with flying.
My wife says she can't even understand ATC, but I respond (most of the time correctly) quickly. I manage the single pilot IFR workload by WORKING AHEAD.
She was never up with the plane. The flight tracks and altitude tracks on the accident day clearly show this. It was a trim fight, and she was losing.
There are servos in the aircraft, which act on the control surface cables or turnbuckles as needed. The yoke follows these servos as they are connected to the same device.
It's semantics, but saying the AP acts on the yoke itself is factually incorrect.
I've had two autopilots in my Debonair, the first being a Brittain Acu-Trak II wing leveler, which would track Nav 2, and the second being a S-Tec 55X, which is fully coupled with electric trim. It took me a week of reading the manual, trying the simulator, and then flying with an instructor to learn how to drive the S-Tec. Now that I'm proficient, it's easy to use.
I can tell from her button pushing - she didn't know what she was doing with the Century 2000. I say that as the former Avionics Editor for both Private Pilot Magazine and Custom Planes Magazine - I'm familiar with the Century 2000.
The "big picture" here is she was behind the plane.
Yes, that's pretty much it. You have an indicator above it to show you where you are, trim wise.
Other than slow flight, I seldom if ever see my flight trim outside of +/- 3.
The "details" are she was not keeping up with flying.
My wife says she can't even understand ATC, but I respond (most of the time correctly) quickly. I manage the single pilot IFR workload by WORKING AHEAD.
She was never up with the plane. The flight tracks and altitude tracks on the accident day clearly show this. It was a trim fight, and she was losing.
The "big picture" here is she was behind the plane.
Yes, that's pretty much it. You have an indicator above it to show you where you are, trim wise.
Other than slow flight, I seldom if ever see my flight trim outside of +/- 3.
The "details" are she was not keeping up with flying.
My wife says she can't even understand ATC, but I respond (most of the time correctly) quickly. I manage the single pilot IFR workload by WORKING AHEAD.
She was never up with the plane. The flight tracks and altitude tracks on the accident day clearly show this. It was a trim fight, and she was losing.
Yes, that's pretty much it. You have an indicator above it to show you where you are, trim wise.
Other than slow flight, I seldom if ever see my flight trim outside of +/- 3.
The "details" are she was not keeping up with flying.
My wife says she can't even understand ATC, but I respond (most of the time correctly) quickly. I manage the single pilot IFR workload by WORKING AHEAD.
She was never up with the plane. The flight tracks and altitude tracks on the accident day clearly show this. It was a trim fight, and she was losing.
You can go on and on. The trim?????????? Anytime there is a control issue involving trim you disconnect the AP and fly the airplane.
The "big picture" questions all of this as a sequence of events that had an unfortunate end.
The main point here is that it wasn't any ONE FACTOR that caused this incident. It was, as it usually is with these things....a series of events, each one, and all of them contributing to the end result.
In other words.........the "big picture".
Dudley Henriques
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I have a different perspective.
Take away 1 thing and this accident doesn't happen.
That one thing is the proficiency of the pilot. If the pilot was proficient and capable, this event doesn't happen. The plane would have flown on to it's destination. No crash, no NTSB, no deaths, no destruction of the plane.
The rest of the observations are just bullet-holes around this bullseye.
I say this as someone who has performed Root Causes on numerous events, both human performance related and equipment related. This is unfortunately all on TNFlyGirl, and her inability to Fly The Plane.
As I pilot who wrote for:
Plane & Pilot
Flight Training
Custom Planes
Private Pilot
Avionics News
The American Bonanza Society
Sport Aviation
and a few others, I've had the chance to fly right seat in some interesting planes.
And in a few cases, I was behind in the right seat. The planes were new to me, were very complex, and they moved very fast. I declined the opportunity to land one that was established on final into Las Vegas - I had already mentally totaled in my mind the cost of the engines and props if I binged the nose gear and caused a collapse due to my lack of knowledge and proficiency, and said "No thank you."
Or as the plaque used to say at my previous airport: "Flying is incredibly fun and rewarding. It also has no tolerance at all for any mistakes made."
Then there is the equally appropriate aphorism: "There are old pilots and bold pilots, but there are few old, bold pilots."
She was TOO bold. Insensitive to the risk. Lacking proficiency in the aircraft with the avionics.
It should be a cautionary tale to any YouTuber who wants everyone to look at them. But it likely won't be.
Take away 1 thing and this accident doesn't happen.
That one thing is the proficiency of the pilot. If the pilot was proficient and capable, this event doesn't happen. The plane would have flown on to it's destination. No crash, no NTSB, no deaths, no destruction of the plane.
The rest of the observations are just bullet-holes around this bullseye.
I say this as someone who has performed Root Causes on numerous events, both human performance related and equipment related. This is unfortunately all on TNFlyGirl, and her inability to Fly The Plane.
As I pilot who wrote for:
Plane & Pilot
Flight Training
Custom Planes
Private Pilot
Avionics News
The American Bonanza Society
Sport Aviation
and a few others, I've had the chance to fly right seat in some interesting planes.
And in a few cases, I was behind in the right seat. The planes were new to me, were very complex, and they moved very fast. I declined the opportunity to land one that was established on final into Las Vegas - I had already mentally totaled in my mind the cost of the engines and props if I binged the nose gear and caused a collapse due to my lack of knowledge and proficiency, and said "No thank you."
Or as the plaque used to say at my previous airport: "Flying is incredibly fun and rewarding. It also has no tolerance at all for any mistakes made."
Then there is the equally appropriate aphorism: "There are old pilots and bold pilots, but there are few old, bold pilots."
She was TOO bold. Insensitive to the risk. Lacking proficiency in the aircraft with the avionics.
It should be a cautionary tale to any YouTuber who wants everyone to look at them. But it likely won't be.
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It would appear your assumption would have to be that she had her check ride in this plane.
I can tell you the three examiners I have dealt with would not have passed any person without the ability to have adequate CRM. Nor would any of the Flight Instructors I have had the pleasure (or displeasure in one case) of working with.
I would posit that her original Private Pilot checkride was done in a more economical and docile aircraft, along the lines of a Cessna 152, 172, or perhaps a Diamond DA20 or DA40, or even a Piper Tomahawk, Warrior, or Cherokee.
Such aircraft are not complex, and have around a 30% (in my opinion, not based on any specific analysis) less cockpit workload. Everything is essentially manual. Speed increases and trim are simple and easy.
Unless we get a look at her logbook, or she recorded and published her check ride (and if she did, I'm not aware of it), we will never know.
The Complex signoff is an instructor signoff. How did she get it? Likely by meeting the requirements of the rule. Control the plane, use the cowl flaps (not on a C33 generally), and coordinate flaps and landing gear. If she was using the same instructor that she was in the video, (you know, the one who was manipulating the radios, and was unaware of the altitude bust on approach) then it wouldn't surprise me that such a Complex Rating was signed off.
I know for my transition, my insurance company required 10 hours of flight time with an instructor. Again, same instructor could essentially provide the same instruction we saw, which I think we could both agree was ineffective.
Do you happen to know what TNFlyGirl did her original Private Pilot checkout in?
I can tell you the three examiners I have dealt with would not have passed any person without the ability to have adequate CRM. Nor would any of the Flight Instructors I have had the pleasure (or displeasure in one case) of working with.
I would posit that her original Private Pilot checkride was done in a more economical and docile aircraft, along the lines of a Cessna 152, 172, or perhaps a Diamond DA20 or DA40, or even a Piper Tomahawk, Warrior, or Cherokee.
Such aircraft are not complex, and have around a 30% (in my opinion, not based on any specific analysis) less cockpit workload. Everything is essentially manual. Speed increases and trim are simple and easy.
Unless we get a look at her logbook, or she recorded and published her check ride (and if she did, I'm not aware of it), we will never know.
The Complex signoff is an instructor signoff. How did she get it? Likely by meeting the requirements of the rule. Control the plane, use the cowl flaps (not on a C33 generally), and coordinate flaps and landing gear. If she was using the same instructor that she was in the video, (you know, the one who was manipulating the radios, and was unaware of the altitude bust on approach) then it wouldn't surprise me that such a Complex Rating was signed off.
I know for my transition, my insurance company required 10 hours of flight time with an instructor. Again, same instructor could essentially provide the same instruction we saw, which I think we could both agree was ineffective.
Do you happen to know what TNFlyGirl did her original Private Pilot checkout in?
Obviously there were multiple factors involved in this situation. Distractions with the cameras, autopilot, ATC, dad pressing buttons, etc. In my opinion, based upon years of studying pilot behavior and accidents, while all those factors were causal to the crash, the ultimate reason that a serviceable plane crashed on a sunny day was that when the a/p ultimately was disconnected the trim was so severely out of whack that she was physically startled and perhaps unable to overcome the yoke force necessary to arrest the descent as the speed increased. It may have been noted elsewhere, but it’s possible after disconnecting the a/p, while Jen was trying to fly the plane, dad was inadvertently making the situation worse by reaching across and under the panel adjusting the trim in the wrong direction.
She could have changed her mind of course.
Last edited by netstruggler; 28th Dec 2023 at 08:42.
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That would be the Instrument Checkout.
Unless the rules have changed, you aren't using an autopilot on that. They want to see you hand fly, since the autopilot is not a redundant system, and can fail.
I'm curious what she flew originally for her Private Pilot checkout.
All of her past aviation videos are removed. All I can see is her real estate videos.
Distractions are distractions. So what? The key were was that she wasn't keeping up with and in control of the plane. Look at the video posted earlier in this thread with the crash analysis. She was getting way too much help to keep up. Her dad wasn't a pilot - who was helping her keep up during that flight? Nobody.
If Dad reached across to help and went the wrong way with the trim, it would be:
1. Very obvious as backpressure on the yoke would increase
2. Subject to immediate feedback.
The Beech Debonair trim wheel has printing on the pilot side where you can see "UP" and "DOWN." My friend Dan has a 1965 C Model, and I've flown with him. It's basically the same as a B model with nicer 3rd windows and a better air skeg on tail.
Unless the rules have changed, you aren't using an autopilot on that. They want to see you hand fly, since the autopilot is not a redundant system, and can fail.
I'm curious what she flew originally for her Private Pilot checkout.
All of her past aviation videos are removed. All I can see is her real estate videos.
Distractions are distractions. So what? The key were was that she wasn't keeping up with and in control of the plane. Look at the video posted earlier in this thread with the crash analysis. She was getting way too much help to keep up. Her dad wasn't a pilot - who was helping her keep up during that flight? Nobody.
If Dad reached across to help and went the wrong way with the trim, it would be:
1. Very obvious as backpressure on the yoke would increase
2. Subject to immediate feedback.
The Beech Debonair trim wheel has printing on the pilot side where you can see "UP" and "DOWN." My friend Dan has a 1965 C Model, and I've flown with him. It's basically the same as a B model with nicer 3rd windows and a better air skeg on tail.
Many are assuming this was a trimming problem, but I think she probably stalled it, got into a spin and couldn't recover in time. RIP
In one video she is cruising at 4,500', which is too low for a newish student to practise spin recovery, especially if she was not expecting to spin.
.
In one video she is cruising at 4,500', which is too low for a newish student to practise spin recovery, especially if she was not expecting to spin.
.
Last edited by Uplinker; 28th Dec 2023 at 13:05.
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One must wonder if you are a pilot, or read the preliminary NTSB Report.
Or if a pilot, if you have ever spun in a plane. I have.
From the NTSB Preliminary Report:
About 1019, the airplane entered the first of a series of climbs and descents with corresponding fluctuations in its observed groundspeed. (Note: This indicates a trim issue, not a stall / spin since the groundspeed correlates to the climb and descent) During these oscillations, which varied in magnitude, the airplane’s altitude varied between about 6,400 ft and about 5,300 ft. About 1057, the airplane entered a descent that arrested about 4,300 ft at a groundspeed of 143 kts, after which it climbed to 6,050 ft and slowed to 85 kts. (More of the same - not in control, fighting the plane.) The airplane then began to descend rapidly before ADS-B contact was lost in the vicinity of the accident site. During the last several seconds of the flight, the airplane was on a ground track of 262° descending at a groundspeed that reached a maximum of 228 kts, and the estimated maximum descent rate was about 11,900 ft per minute. (This is not a spin profile. In a spin, you drop in a near vertical configuration, as neither wing has lift.)
In my spins (Cessna 152, Super Decathlon, 35-B33 Debonair (unintentional), the following happened:
Slow flight was the initiation condition. in the 152, I couldn't maintain rudder control, the plane rolled and started spinning. My direction was VERTICAL, not on any angle. I reduced power, used opposite rudder to stop the spin, used the ailerons and elevator to level and break the stall, and restored power.
In the Super Decathlon I was training under the late Gene Littlefield for aerobatics. These were deliberate spins, so we'd go up high, and do the same thing I did in the 152, and the same thing to recover. The Super Decathlon is rated for spins, and I had Gene flying in the back seat to help me if I got into trouble, which I didn't.
In my Debonair, I was doing Commercial maneuvers working on my commercial rating with an instructor in the right seat. Again, at minimum controllable airspeed, she had me pull to a stall. My pull was slow, one wing stalled first, and the Debonair rolled inverted and started spinning.
I identified the spin verbally and executed spin recovery. Obviously successful or I wouldn't be writing this.
All three spins had the same elements - very fast (around 4000 fpm) vertical descents, no angle.
This plane left a 5 foot deep crater, with a "fan-spray of debris." That isn't a spin crash - those "pancake" and have very confined debris fields. They generally don't make that big of a crater.
Sorry, this was not a stall-spin. No way.
Or if a pilot, if you have ever spun in a plane. I have.
From the NTSB Preliminary Report:
About 1019, the airplane entered the first of a series of climbs and descents with corresponding fluctuations in its observed groundspeed. (Note: This indicates a trim issue, not a stall / spin since the groundspeed correlates to the climb and descent) During these oscillations, which varied in magnitude, the airplane’s altitude varied between about 6,400 ft and about 5,300 ft. About 1057, the airplane entered a descent that arrested about 4,300 ft at a groundspeed of 143 kts, after which it climbed to 6,050 ft and slowed to 85 kts. (More of the same - not in control, fighting the plane.) The airplane then began to descend rapidly before ADS-B contact was lost in the vicinity of the accident site. During the last several seconds of the flight, the airplane was on a ground track of 262° descending at a groundspeed that reached a maximum of 228 kts, and the estimated maximum descent rate was about 11,900 ft per minute. (This is not a spin profile. In a spin, you drop in a near vertical configuration, as neither wing has lift.)
In my spins (Cessna 152, Super Decathlon, 35-B33 Debonair (unintentional), the following happened:
Slow flight was the initiation condition. in the 152, I couldn't maintain rudder control, the plane rolled and started spinning. My direction was VERTICAL, not on any angle. I reduced power, used opposite rudder to stop the spin, used the ailerons and elevator to level and break the stall, and restored power.
In the Super Decathlon I was training under the late Gene Littlefield for aerobatics. These were deliberate spins, so we'd go up high, and do the same thing I did in the 152, and the same thing to recover. The Super Decathlon is rated for spins, and I had Gene flying in the back seat to help me if I got into trouble, which I didn't.
In my Debonair, I was doing Commercial maneuvers working on my commercial rating with an instructor in the right seat. Again, at minimum controllable airspeed, she had me pull to a stall. My pull was slow, one wing stalled first, and the Debonair rolled inverted and started spinning.
I identified the spin verbally and executed spin recovery. Obviously successful or I wouldn't be writing this.
All three spins had the same elements - very fast (around 4000 fpm) vertical descents, no angle.
This plane left a 5 foot deep crater, with a "fan-spray of debris." That isn't a spin crash - those "pancake" and have very confined debris fields. They generally don't make that big of a crater.
Sorry, this was not a stall-spin. No way.
My sincere apologies; AvionicsWiz. I missed that there was an NTSB report.
But, really, I take great exception to your jumping to that sort of language.
I see that you are new here; you will find that we prefer a more "gentlemanly" polite approach towards each other; You could have simply gently corrected me.
For what it's worth; yes, I am a real pilot, with nearly 12,000 hours total time; in GA but mostly passenger jet airliners. And, yes, I have spun planes, both deliberately during training, and once, accidentally in a twin turbo-prop, (while under instruction).
I will read the report, now I know there is one.
But, really, I take great exception to your jumping to that sort of language.
I see that you are new here; you will find that we prefer a more "gentlemanly" polite approach towards each other; You could have simply gently corrected me.
For what it's worth; yes, I am a real pilot, with nearly 12,000 hours total time; in GA but mostly passenger jet airliners. And, yes, I have spun planes, both deliberately during training, and once, accidentally in a twin turbo-prop, (while under instruction).
I will read the report, now I know there is one.
Am I correct in thinking these direction markings could not be seen from the passenger seat?
What happens is that the nose goes further down increasing airspeed and descent rate (as described in the NTSB report).
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"Well said" as well!!
(I've also spun an aeroplane or few... Harvard, C150/C152. PA28, PA38, R2160, DH82a... and taught people to spin,
)
Let's stick to being gentlemen!!
(I've also spun an aeroplane or few... Harvard, C150/C152. PA28, PA38, R2160, DH82a... and taught people to spin,
)Let's stick to being gentlemen!!
NTSB preliminary:
https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/a...ort/193491/pdf
https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/a...ort/193491/pdf
Knowing that an hour with the manual and an hour with even a half decent instructor would have likely prevented this fatal event.
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A sudden medical issue wouldn't explain the unstable altitude control during the flight.
In a trimmed condition, an airplane will settle at an airspeed and altitude. It may climb (if trimmed up) until engine power is reduced by the thinner air before it levels out, or descend into the ground if trimmed for a descent.
However, no trim level will result in the plane going up and down and up and down like this. This to me looks like a Trim Runaway event (which is why current autopilot installations put "kill switches" right in the pilot's field of vision.) Mine are directly below the HSI. Flip the trim switch off, trim is dead. Flip the autopilot switch off, the autopilot is dead.
For a trim runaway to happen, autotrim has to be installed and has to malfunction. It has been established that this aircraft was not equipped with autotrim. So that isn't a potential failure path.
You pull back the throttle to flight idle.
Extend the landing gear (knowing you are beyond legal extension speeds of 144 kts probably, and will lose or damage your gear doors.)
If you are going down fast, both of those actions will:
1. Slow you
2. Cause the plane to level slightly due to the drag.
They cannot be seen by the passenger. They are on the pilot side of the center column, which includes the nose gear position indicator.
I don't have any pictures which show this. The next time I'm in the area, I'll snap a shot. I'm grounded due to COVID-related heart issues at this time, so I haven't been flying.
In a trimmed condition, an airplane will settle at an airspeed and altitude. It may climb (if trimmed up) until engine power is reduced by the thinner air before it levels out, or descend into the ground if trimmed for a descent.
However, no trim level will result in the plane going up and down and up and down like this. This to me looks like a Trim Runaway event (which is why current autopilot installations put "kill switches" right in the pilot's field of vision.) Mine are directly below the HSI. Flip the trim switch off, trim is dead. Flip the autopilot switch off, the autopilot is dead.
For a trim runaway to happen, autotrim has to be installed and has to malfunction. It has been established that this aircraft was not equipped with autotrim. So that isn't a potential failure path.
You pull back the throttle to flight idle.
Extend the landing gear (knowing you are beyond legal extension speeds of 144 kts probably, and will lose or damage your gear doors.)
If you are going down fast, both of those actions will:
1. Slow you
2. Cause the plane to level slightly due to the drag.
They cannot be seen by the passenger. They are on the pilot side of the center column, which includes the nose gear position indicator.
I don't have any pictures which show this. The next time I'm in the area, I'll snap a shot. I'm grounded due to COVID-related heart issues at this time, so I haven't been flying.
Last edited by AvionicsWiz; 29th Dec 2023 at 13:10. Reason: Punctuation