TNFlygirl crash analysis
Many years ago, when I was a student pilot, I went to Oshkosh with a 300 hour pilot who owned a Cherokee 6. We both lived in the same town in Connecticut. He was not a very accomplished aviator, which was actually a good learning experience for me. He had a single axis autopilot and knew how to couple it to the Loran. He held altitude within about +/-500 feet much of the time. Had any of that kit crapped out, and had I not been there, I think he would have gotten lost. But I did notice an interesting thing about the autopilot. About every 10 minutes, it would make a correction to the left, then go back to S&L. I found this very curious, especially as a young electronic flight controls engineer at Sikorsky Aircraft. After a glorious week at my first Oshkosh we were headed home and I asked him if I could hand fly the aircraft for a little while, and he said yes. The aircraft had yaw trim as well as pitch trim, and they were all out of whack. I trimmed everything and after about 10 minutes he got nervous and put it back on autopilot. For the next 600 miles it never did the correction to the left again. We also held altitude a lot better after that. I'm sure the trim never moved again until he sold the airplane.
What others have said about manual trim and autopilots makes a lot of sense. I'm glad my companion only had single axis autopilot capability as I am sure he could have been in this scenario as well. The only substitute for airmanship is luck, and that is a hard thing to count on.
What others have said about manual trim and autopilots makes a lot of sense. I'm glad my companion only had single axis autopilot capability as I am sure he could have been in this scenario as well. The only substitute for airmanship is luck, and that is a hard thing to count on.
Last edited by IFMU; 21st Dec 2023 at 15:36. Reason: Got right and left mixed up again
I would say yes absolutely, these aural warnings are designed for noisy cockpits and pilots wearing headsets.
It is in the avionics stack in the middle of the panel and clearly visible for the pilot. Watch this video here (for at long it is still available on YouTube) where she tries out the autopilot after it came back from being repaired: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2wIUOIgINk
She has absolutely no idea what she is doing and at one point her non-pilot (as we now know) father must tell her that the autopilot is actually engaged in altitude-hold-mode. The trim light is flashing all the time but she couldn't care less. And in the end she commits the cardinal sin of disconnecting the autopilot from it's control panel instead of using the disconnect button on the yoke whilst gripping that steadily. But again, someone had to tell her about those things or she should have read the manual, neither of which obviously happened.
Everything is possible.
It is in the avionics stack in the middle of the panel and clearly visible for the pilot. Watch this video here (for at long it is still available on YouTube) where she tries out the autopilot after it came back from being repaired: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2wIUOIgINk
She has absolutely no idea what she is doing and at one point her non-pilot (as we now know) father must tell her that the autopilot is actually engaged in altitude-hold-mode. The trim light is flashing all the time but she couldn't care less. And in the end she commits the cardinal sin of disconnecting the autopilot from it's control panel instead of using the disconnect button on the yoke whilst gripping that steadily. But again, someone had to tell her about those things or she should have read the manual, neither of which obviously happened.
Everything is possible.
Video 2:27ish...
"Positive rate of climb"
"Gear down"
???
"Positive rate of climb"
"Gear down"
???
I used to fly a PA32 fitted with this autopilot. There was no autotrim function on the AP. There was an out of trim indicator top left of the panel, and an electric trim switch on the yoke. Adjust trim and light goes out. Only problem I ever had was staying awake with the AP engaged.
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I've been following this on the excellent blancolirio channel.
It was very difficult to watch the video he included in his first report. I was shouting "THROTTLE!!" at the screen.
From the latest blancolirio video the initial report says that they found some intact memory cards from the camera gear. That will be a difficult watch for the NTSB if the video files are recoverable.
Poor girl. Distinct lack of basic understanding and training.
It was very difficult to watch the video he included in his first report. I was shouting "THROTTLE!!" at the screen.
From the latest blancolirio video the initial report says that they found some intact memory cards from the camera gear. That will be a difficult watch for the NTSB if the video files are recoverable.
Poor girl. Distinct lack of basic understanding and training.
In the two videos I have seen; (posted in this thread); this pilot's instructors have been terrible.
One was hyperactive - taking over, with hands all over the instrumentation; making unrequested adjustments and confusing and distracting the pilot. The other "instructor" was almost asleep, and virtually no help at all. Neither were remotely helpful and it sadly does not surprise me that this pilot did not have the basic, fundamental mindset, personal organisation or situational awareness that a GA pilot needs for single pilot operations.
Both were very poor instructors, and this pilot had not got the basics drummed into them. Nor had the operation of the autopilot been explained, (or even studied).
But the guy with the beard obviously did not know how the autopilot worked either - when the pilot was trying to climb, without adding power, he just sat there doing and saying nothing while the speed rolled back towards the stall speed, (at which point the pilot correctly disconnected the AP; although she incorrectly thought the autopilot wasn't working, and she clearly had not trimmed the elevator).
Why didn't the instructor say: "You're climbing the aircraft, what else do you need to do now ?" {add power}. And then; "Does this autopilot trim for you?" {no, you always need to manually trim}. Two simple questions which would have instantly given full understanding to this pilot, with which they would probably not have gotten themselves into whatever situation caused the later crash.
And I think that too much tech was being used, too early. The pilot seems reasonably able to hand-fly, and adjust engine fuel mixture etc, but has far too many distractions with all the extra tech; the autopilot, the iPad map, the Go-Pros etc. The pilot clearly spent a lot of time editing the videos and adding clips from other films to make certain points. Had that time been spent studying the theory and operation of the autopilot, and of basic GA navigation, I think we would have seen a different outcome here.
At the very least, I hope those two instructors read this thread and buck their ideas up, and that new pilots in similar situations to this poor lady will learn from this too.
RIP
One was hyperactive - taking over, with hands all over the instrumentation; making unrequested adjustments and confusing and distracting the pilot. The other "instructor" was almost asleep, and virtually no help at all. Neither were remotely helpful and it sadly does not surprise me that this pilot did not have the basic, fundamental mindset, personal organisation or situational awareness that a GA pilot needs for single pilot operations.
Both were very poor instructors, and this pilot had not got the basics drummed into them. Nor had the operation of the autopilot been explained, (or even studied).
But the guy with the beard obviously did not know how the autopilot worked either - when the pilot was trying to climb, without adding power, he just sat there doing and saying nothing while the speed rolled back towards the stall speed, (at which point the pilot correctly disconnected the AP; although she incorrectly thought the autopilot wasn't working, and she clearly had not trimmed the elevator).
Why didn't the instructor say: "You're climbing the aircraft, what else do you need to do now ?" {add power}. And then; "Does this autopilot trim for you?" {no, you always need to manually trim}. Two simple questions which would have instantly given full understanding to this pilot, with which they would probably not have gotten themselves into whatever situation caused the later crash.
And I think that too much tech was being used, too early. The pilot seems reasonably able to hand-fly, and adjust engine fuel mixture etc, but has far too many distractions with all the extra tech; the autopilot, the iPad map, the Go-Pros etc. The pilot clearly spent a lot of time editing the videos and adding clips from other films to make certain points. Had that time been spent studying the theory and operation of the autopilot, and of basic GA navigation, I think we would have seen a different outcome here.
At the very least, I hope those two instructors read this thread and buck their ideas up, and that new pilots in similar situations to this poor lady will learn from this too.
RIP
Sadly, "The guy with the beard" was not an instructor, or a qualified pilot at all, he was her father who also died in the crash.
Very, very sad.
But some instructor passed her as qualified for a PPL. He needs serious punishment.
IB
Very, very sad.
But some instructor passed her as qualified for a PPL. He needs serious punishment.
IB
Sadly, "The guy with the beard" was not an instructor, or a qualified pilot at all, he was her father who also died in the crash.
And a little later the same guy with the beard talks about buzzing a local motor racing circuit in his own plane and showing them what speed really is. So he is a pilot.
(RTFA !).
Last edited by Uplinker; 23rd Dec 2023 at 08:07.
It wasn’t clear to me initially but from what I can work out there were two bearded blokes and only one is an instructor.
The gent sat in the RHS during the apparent near stall was the non-pilot father.
The one in the RHS who discussed the motor racing circuit may well have been an instructor given the context of the discussion.
The gent sat in the RHS during the apparent near stall was the non-pilot father.
The one in the RHS who discussed the motor racing circuit may well have been an instructor given the context of the discussion.
An instructor gave her ab initio training
An instructor signed her off for the PPL check ride
A DPE or FAA examiner issued her PPL certificate
An instructor should have signed her off for high performance aircraft
There were lots of opportunities to recognize and correct any issues with her ability to act as pilot in command.
I was thinking about this accident before I went to bed last night and thought I would have nightmares about it. The scenario I imagined was that AP mismanagement got the airplane trimmed nose down. The pilot was able to hold altitude but asked the non pilot passenger for nose up trim. Now which way do you move the trim wheel for nose up trim? You move it DOWN. My nightmare scenario has the pilot calling more and more urgently for nose up trim and the passenger responding by moving the trim wheel more and more UP.
An instructor signed her off for the PPL check ride
A DPE or FAA examiner issued her PPL certificate
An instructor should have signed her off for high performance aircraft
There were lots of opportunities to recognize and correct any issues with her ability to act as pilot in command.
I was thinking about this accident before I went to bed last night and thought I would have nightmares about it. The scenario I imagined was that AP mismanagement got the airplane trimmed nose down. The pilot was able to hold altitude but asked the non pilot passenger for nose up trim. Now which way do you move the trim wheel for nose up trim? You move it DOWN. My nightmare scenario has the pilot calling more and more urgently for nose up trim and the passenger responding by moving the trim wheel more and more UP.
Last edited by EXDAC; 23rd Dec 2023 at 16:15.
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From the preliminary NTSB report. ERA24FA058
That's going to make grim viewing for someone but at least there will be little doubt as to the cause.
The wreckage, including two intact digital video recording devices, were retained for further examination.
That's going to make grim viewing for someone but at least there will be little doubt as to the cause.
Last edited by OPENDOOR; 23rd Dec 2023 at 13:32. Reason: Add report number.
An instructor gave her ab initio training
An instructor signed her off for the PPL check ride
A DPE or FAA examiner issued her PPL certificate
An instructor should have signed her off for high performance aircraft
There were lots of opportunities to recognize and correct any issues with her ability to act as pilot in command.
I was thinking about this accident before I went to bed last night and thought I would have nightmares about it. The scenario I imagined was that AP mismanagement got the airplane trimmed nose down. The pilot was able to hold altitude but asked the non pilot passenger for nose up trim. Now which way do you move the trim wheel for nose up trim? You move it DOWN. My nightmare scenario has the pilot calling more and more urgently for nose up trim and the passenger responding by moving the trim wheel more and more UP.
An instructor signed her off for the PPL check ride
A DPE or FAA examiner issued her PPL certificate
An instructor should have signed her off for high performance aircraft
There were lots of opportunities to recognize and correct any issues with her ability to act as pilot in command.
I was thinking about this accident before I went to bed last night and thought I would have nightmares about it. The scenario I imagined was that AP mismanagement got the airplane trimmed nose down. The pilot was able to hold altitude but asked the non pilot passenger for nose up trim. Now which way do you move the trim wheel for nose up trim? You move it DOWN. My nightmare scenario has the pilot calling more and more urgently for nose up trim and the passenger responding by moving the trim wheel more and more UP.
Drain Bamaged
........The scenario I imagined was that AP mismanagement got the airplane trimmed nose down. The pilot was able to hold altitude but asked the non pilot passenger for nose up trim. Now which way do you move the trim wheel for nose up trim? You move it DOWN.
OR; when flying with her father, maybe she went back to investigating the autopilot 'not climbing', but this time instead of disconnecting the AP when approaching stall speed, she either got distracted, or she let it continue below stall speed waiting to see if it would make corrections. Obviously, it couldn't, not having a power lever motor or a pitch trim motor, so eventually, the aircraft went into a full stall. And/or a spin.
Given her lack of SA - she allows the aircraft to move forwards while eyes inside, when she is supposed to be holding it on the toe brakes waiting to line up - a sudden unexpected stall or a spin would most likely have completely thrown her. Did she know how to get out of a stall ? Did she remember and apply the instantaneous correct flight control actions for a stall or a spin ? Given the terrible instructors she suffered; I sadly really doubt it.
I really hope that instructors everywhere will use this set of videos as material for training and review; of how not to do it, and take lessons from them.
The pictures I have seen of the Debonair and Bonanza show the trim wheel is near the left seat plot's right knee with the aft and lower sectors of the wheel exposed for manipulation by the pilot.
If that's true then the wheel could be moved by pulling/pushing the bottom of the wheel or by raising and lowering the aft facing part of the wheel. Can someone with experience in this aircraft type confirm that's the way the trim wheel is used when electric trim is not fitted?
Is the sense of this trim wheel the same as in most other aircraft i.e. rotating the wheel top forward, rear up, bottom back, front down will all produce nose down trim?
If that's true then the wheel could be moved by pulling/pushing the bottom of the wheel or by raising and lowering the aft facing part of the wheel. Can someone with experience in this aircraft type confirm that's the way the trim wheel is used when electric trim is not fitted?
Is the sense of this trim wheel the same as in most other aircraft i.e. rotating the wheel top forward, rear up, bottom back, front down will all produce nose down trim?
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There’s a whole crop of new folks who spend more time setting up their cameras than on the preflight & planning.
But hey, ya can make more money from YouTube than FO pay.
But hey, ya can make more money from YouTube than FO pay.
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Mine was simpler.
Fly The Plane.
I'm speaking as a 35-B33 Debonair pilot with 1100 hours in the plane. She was not keeping up with SIMPLE requirements at 400 hours, which is very troubling.
In one video, ATC had them (TNFlyGirl and the instructor) go around on a missed approach. The instructor seemed to think they were fine, and he asked (when ATC asked if they needed help) what was wrong.
They were 900 feet below the waypoint altitude.
You can hit the ground 900 feet below a waypoint. That's why it's the minimum altitude at that point, so I see why ATC cancelled their clearance and sent them around.
Yet both TNFlyGirl and the instructor were oblivious. You fly an approach like this, you get asked to call the tower when you land, if you even land.
Unfortunately, this is another pilot who is more interested in making videos (LOOK AT ME) than flying the plane.
A Debonair is a Bonanza with a straight tail. It was supposed to be the cheaper plane, to pull market share back to Beech from the Cessna 210 and Piper Comanche aircraft, which were slightly less expensive than the Bonanza. The Debonair is just as slippery and "go fast" as the Bonanza, it picks up speed readily. You have to be thinking ahead of the plane at all times - and sadly, she was 3 steps behind the plane at all times.
As to the "doctor killer" comment, that was attributed to people who were flying Cessnas moving into the Bonanza line. In a Cessna 172 or 182, you were puttering along at 2500 feet. You see the airport, you could descend.
In a Bonanza, you're up higher, and these same pilots who were used to flying a less slick plane would point the nose down, and exceed VNe. There was also the problem with the straight 35, the 35A and the 35B models, where they did not have the later tail reinforcements, which led to problems as speed picked up causing elevon fluttering and failure.
However, this has NOTHING to do with TNFlyGirl's crash. This was someone who was never keeping up with the plane. Find the videos - watch. Her instructor is handling comms, manipulating instruments and the GPS, and telling her what to do. That's just crazy!
Fly The Plane.
I'm speaking as a 35-B33 Debonair pilot with 1100 hours in the plane. She was not keeping up with SIMPLE requirements at 400 hours, which is very troubling.
In one video, ATC had them (TNFlyGirl and the instructor) go around on a missed approach. The instructor seemed to think they were fine, and he asked (when ATC asked if they needed help) what was wrong.
They were 900 feet below the waypoint altitude.
You can hit the ground 900 feet below a waypoint. That's why it's the minimum altitude at that point, so I see why ATC cancelled their clearance and sent them around.
Yet both TNFlyGirl and the instructor were oblivious. You fly an approach like this, you get asked to call the tower when you land, if you even land.
Unfortunately, this is another pilot who is more interested in making videos (LOOK AT ME) than flying the plane.
A Debonair is a Bonanza with a straight tail. It was supposed to be the cheaper plane, to pull market share back to Beech from the Cessna 210 and Piper Comanche aircraft, which were slightly less expensive than the Bonanza. The Debonair is just as slippery and "go fast" as the Bonanza, it picks up speed readily. You have to be thinking ahead of the plane at all times - and sadly, she was 3 steps behind the plane at all times.
As to the "doctor killer" comment, that was attributed to people who were flying Cessnas moving into the Bonanza line. In a Cessna 172 or 182, you were puttering along at 2500 feet. You see the airport, you could descend.
In a Bonanza, you're up higher, and these same pilots who were used to flying a less slick plane would point the nose down, and exceed VNe. There was also the problem with the straight 35, the 35A and the 35B models, where they did not have the later tail reinforcements, which led to problems as speed picked up causing elevon fluttering and failure.
However, this has NOTHING to do with TNFlyGirl's crash. This was someone who was never keeping up with the plane. Find the videos - watch. Her instructor is handling comms, manipulating instruments and the GPS, and telling her what to do. That's just crazy!
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"Tech" doesn't fly aeroplanes. If the basics are not learnt and understood properly then just don't fly. All those basics in understanding that have gone missing in this incident can be taught on a J3 'Cub', where the only electrics are the magnetos. Keeping 'tech' out of it and learning the basics properly should be the way that people learn to fly.
Because they don't actually enjoy the flying themselves, they just want to show everybody "what they are doing". Sadly a very 'shallow' bunch of people.
I once taught someone on his first airline flight and as we popped above cloud, he turned to me saying "Excuse me a moment", turned to the side window overlooking the view of the clouds below, held his clenched hands to the window and exclaimed "Yes!", turned to me again with a big smile and said "Sorry, I needed to do that!", then continued with his job. He really enjoyed flying and was pleased to have got where he was and that moment meant so much to him. No cameras, no "showing everyone else", but that moment will still be etched in his mind. (As is my memory of it!)
Can we 'bin' all the shallow 'glitzy' "tech" and have some more real pilots? Pilots can only fly an aeroplane through an autopilot if they understand how to fly the aeroplane in the first place. And the best pilots are those who, when they have any uncertainty about what the autopilot is doing, will disconnect the autopilot and fly the aeroplane themselves. Because they can.
(The idea of 'driverless cars' on the road, with a similar lack of understanding of driving, horrifies me!!)
I once taught someone on his first airline flight and as we popped above cloud, he turned to me saying "Excuse me a moment", turned to the side window overlooking the view of the clouds below, held his clenched hands to the window and exclaimed "Yes!", turned to me again with a big smile and said "Sorry, I needed to do that!", then continued with his job. He really enjoyed flying and was pleased to have got where he was and that moment meant so much to him. No cameras, no "showing everyone else", but that moment will still be etched in his mind. (As is my memory of it!)
Can we 'bin' all the shallow 'glitzy' "tech" and have some more real pilots? Pilots can only fly an aeroplane through an autopilot if they understand how to fly the aeroplane in the first place. And the best pilots are those who, when they have any uncertainty about what the autopilot is doing, will disconnect the autopilot and fly the aeroplane themselves. Because they can.
(The idea of 'driverless cars' on the road, with a similar lack of understanding of driving, horrifies me!!)
There are enough aspects to this incident to choke a horse.
One can go through the mistakes made and indeed the entire scenario from the beginning and find the entire thing filled from top to bottom with factors that should never have happened.
The ultimate answer to this is that literally EVERYTHING was wrong from beginning to end.
The incident is literally filled with "what not to do".
Were I to be lecturing on this I would not only be discussing the incidentals but as well the system that allows incidents such as this one to develop and take place.
There is much to be learned here and it's easy to get bogged down in specific details. The danger there is in possibly losing the "big picture".
Dudley Henriques
One can go through the mistakes made and indeed the entire scenario from the beginning and find the entire thing filled from top to bottom with factors that should never have happened.
The ultimate answer to this is that literally EVERYTHING was wrong from beginning to end.
The incident is literally filled with "what not to do".
Were I to be lecturing on this I would not only be discussing the incidentals but as well the system that allows incidents such as this one to develop and take place.
There is much to be learned here and it's easy to get bogged down in specific details. The danger there is in possibly losing the "big picture".
Dudley Henriques