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Bizjet Collision at Houston Hobby

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Bizjet Collision at Houston Hobby

Old 25th Oct 2023, 03:42
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Bizjet Collision at Houston Hobby

According to officials with the Federal Aviation Administration, a twin engine Hawker H25B departed without permission from runway 22 when it collided with a twin-engine Cessna C510 that was landing on Runway 13 Right. Then the Cessna C510 taxied to the ramp area.

Hobby Airport reopens after aircraft departed without permission causing collision with another aircraft

Listening to LiveATC, N269AA/Hawker pilot reported “mid-air” and requested immediate return to airport (landed 13R). N510HM taxied to the FBO after landing. Video shows Hawker left winglet clipped so assume C510 was struck on empennage. Airport ops directed closure of airport due to amount of debris at intersection of 22 and 13R.
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Old 25th Oct 2023, 06:05
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Aft end of junction between empennage and fuelage.

Video has a bit of post-event ATC also, in which the departing pilot seems to believe he had been cleared for take-off - since he complains to ATC that "You guys just cleared somebody to takeoff or land, and we hit him on the departure."

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Old 25th Oct 2023, 21:01
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One thing I like to do on a multi-crew operation is:

If anyone mentions/question whether there was a takeoff clearance/or has a concern that could be because of a lack of a takeoff clearance, it is mandatory to confirm with ATC, even if everyone else is 1000% sure that there was a takeoff clearance. In other words, only ATC can verify, not the other crew members.

This only helps in some of the cases but it is one way to reduce the risk. Would have worked in Tenerife.
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Old 25th Oct 2023, 21:58
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Given the continuous line of arrivals for 13R at the time of the accident, I would bet that this is another case of the ATC issuing “line up and wait” and the flight crew hearing “line up and launch.”
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Old 26th Oct 2023, 00:23
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Originally Posted by BFSGrad
and the flight crew hearing “line up and launch.”
Please tell me no ATC really says that.

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Old 26th Oct 2023, 03:32
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Originally Posted by 2b2
Please tell me no ATC really says that.
Tongue-in-cheek. Point is, whatever combination of words ATC transmitted, the Hawker pilots translated that into something approximating a takeoff clearance.

NTSB posted following statement today on X:

At 3:20 p.m. CDT, on Tuesday, Oct. 24, a Hawker 850XP airplane (N269AA), was instructed by an air traffic controller to line up and wait on Runway 22 at Houston Hobby International Airport. The Hawker started a takeoff roll on Runway 22 and its wing collided with the tail of a Cessna 510 airplane (N510HM) that had landed on Runway 13R. The pilot of the Hawker continued the takeoff on Runway 22 before returning to land.

No injuries to any of the five people on the Cessna or to the three people on the Hawker were reported.
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Old 26th Oct 2023, 18:00
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Before going into wild speculations , does someone has the correct ATC recording of the line up clearance issued ?
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Old 26th Oct 2023, 21:56
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
...does someone has the correct ATC recording of the line up clearance issued ?
Houston Hobby has uncharacteristically poor LiveATC coverage with just a single channel with ground, tower, and approach combined. That’s the audio available in the public domain.

For the FAA and NTSB to quickly issue statements regarding the ATC instructions associated with this accident would indicate that the official (non-public) ATC tapes contain unambiguous information.

What we really want to hear is the Hawker CVR. Any bets on whether it contains usable data?
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Old 26th Oct 2023, 22:18
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Tell me again why “line up and wait” was a big improvement on “position and hold”.


Anything with a turbine (in the us) is assumed, at a controlled field, to be ready to go when they hit number 1 at the end of the taxiway to the active. They don’t have to say “ready to go” so they will be at risk for confusing someone else’s takeoff clearance.
Seems to me this is probably a fairly easy problem to fix….
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Old 26th Oct 2023, 23:56
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Originally Posted by 421dog
Tell me again why “line up and wait” was a big improvement on “position and hold”.


Anything with a turbine (in the us) is assumed, at a controlled field, to be ready to go when they hit number 1 at the end of the taxiway to the active. They don’t have to say “ready to go” so they will be at risk for confusing someone else’s takeoff clearance.
Seems to me this is probably a fairly easy problem to fix….
I don't see the relevence of being ready to go or confusing a takeoff clearance for another aircraft to the Houston event.
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Old 27th Oct 2023, 10:24
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I’m fascinated by the airborne pilot’s instant diagnosis of the problem and attribution of blame. Also the tone and content of his communications with ATC.

As posted above; CVRs, if they haven’t already been deleted, will be interesting reading.
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Old 31st Oct 2023, 14:11
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I am surprised that this incident has not gotten more attention. Given the stream of 737's landing 13 this could have been a major disaster. The attitude of the Hawker pilot seems rather strange. Not a peep from the Citation crew. The lack of any audio information on the clearance delivery.
It does not get any closer than this. I can't remember hearing about commercial planes clipping during take off/landing. Taxi or ramp, yes but on the go.
When does the NTSB usually issue a preliminary report?


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Old 31st Oct 2023, 17:08
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Originally Posted by 20driver
When does the NTSB usually issue a preliminary report?
For this accident, NTSB stated within 30 days.

As for the lack of interest, no dead bodies = short news cycle.
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Old 9th Nov 2023, 14:42
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So the Preliminary Report is issued here: https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/a...ort/193297/pdf

No real conclusions drawn yet, but:

"At 1518:01 the local controller instructed the crew of N269AA to LUAW (line up and wait) on runway 22, to which the crew acknowledged. The local controller did not give a traffic advisory to N269AA. N269AA was in the takeoff roll on runway 22, when the flight data/clearance delivery controller alerted the local controller about N269AA’s movement, and at 1519:47 the local controller stated “november nine alpha alpha, stop, hold your position.” There was no response from the crew of N269AA, and at 1519:53 the local controller again stated, “alpha, alpha, hold your position, stop,” to which there was still no response."

N269AA was the Hawker jet.

There is no explanation yet as to why N269AA did not hear, or respond to, the Stop instructions.

From damage photos, it appears that the wing tip of the Hawker clipped the tail of the Citation behind the engines. If they had met a second or two earlier, the results would have been catastrophic.

IB
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Old 9th Nov 2023, 15:38
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Originally Posted by Ivor_Bigunn
There is no explanation yet as to why N269AA did not hear, or respond to, the Stop instructions.
The flight crew from N269AA stated in their post-accident interview they had a rudder bias alert, and a pitch trim alert which they had to resolve as they were in the takeoff roll.
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Old 9th Nov 2023, 17:46
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Originally Posted by BFSGrad
The flight crew from N269AA stated in their post-accident interview they had a rudder bias alert, and a pitch trim alert which they had to resolve as they were in the takeoff roll.
But why were they on the takeoff roll in the first place ?
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Old 9th Nov 2023, 17:59
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Originally Posted by lossiemouth
But why were they on the takeoff roll in the first place ?
Is it normal to continue a take off roll when one has a couple of 'alerts'?
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Old 9th Nov 2023, 18:15
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Originally Posted by HOVIS
Is it normal to continue a take off roll when one has a couple of 'alerts'?
Especially when it appears you haven't been cleared for take off!
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Old 9th Nov 2023, 21:09
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from the preliminary report :
The crew of N269AA said in a post-accident interview that they believed they heard that they were cleared for takeoff when they took off.
The CVR transcript of N269AA (as it seems there was one) would be interesting to read .
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Old 10th Nov 2023, 01:03
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
from the preliminary report :
The CVR transcript of N269AA (as it seems there was one) would be interesting to read .
Report states the Hawker CVR was sent to NTSB in DC. Hopeful that it contains useful data.

In addition to the alerts during the takeoff roll, the Hawker crew was also dealing with loss of displayed V-speeds while holding short of 22. Plenty of distractions to divide attention and create tunnel vision (tunnel hearing?).

Tip of the cap to the tower crew for visually observing the Hawker in motion and issuing a stop command before the ASDE-X alarmed. Not the easiest sight line from the tower to the departure end of 22.
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