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Close one at Frankfurt

Old 27th Jun 2023, 17:42
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Close one at Frankfurt

https://avherald.com/h?article=50ae0...Kt5-NDM0ijOk0g
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Old 27th Jun 2023, 18:43
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"Stalled during go-around" ???

Another incisive Avherald analysis ...
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Old 27th Jun 2023, 21:19
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
"Stalled during go-around" ???

Another incisive Avherald analysis ...
Apparently so.
What is your issue with this assertion?!
​​
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Old 27th Jun 2023, 22:19
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Originally Posted by atakacs
What is your issue with this assertion?!​​
Simply that there's zero evidence to support a stall.

Seems to be based on a flawed interpretation of ADS-B data. By no means the first dodgy Avherald "analysis" that has tried to use it in support of dubious conclusions.
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Old 3rd Jul 2023, 00:55
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Super-strong winds around that time not that far from the airport that day. I saw building damage. Might have been doing the Beat The Thunderstorm game.
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Old 3rd Jul 2023, 20:15
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
Simply that there's zero evidence to support a stall.

Seems to be based on a flawed interpretation of ADS-B data. By no means the first dodgy Avherald "analysis" that has tried to use it in support of dubious conclusions.
60 kts groundspeed at low altitude, and an over 1000 ft loss of altitude thereafter to regain speed does not sound great. No, stall not confirmed, but I would not confidently say 0 evidence either.
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Old 4th Jul 2023, 15:56
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
Simply that there's zero evidence to support a stall.
There's been an update, 50kts ground speed confirmed by DFS (official ATC) radar data.
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Old 31st Aug 2023, 16:45
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Looks pretty scary to me

https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/...154766.article
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Old 31st Aug 2023, 17:33
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Rapid fluctuations in the 3D wind field can have nasty effects on the flight path.

QAR analysis may be able to quantify the vertical and horizontal windshears.

Shears can affect AoA



​​​​Bottom line: This windshear escape maneuver worked.
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Old 1st Sep 2023, 10:46
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Umm... that's QAR data in the avherald article showing a minimum 78kts IAS. Fairly certain that would put a 767 into the stall regime... so, a little more than an "assertion".

And yes, the escape manoeuvre did the trick. Good work.
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Old 1st Sep 2023, 14:56
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Yikes!



There is little indication of vertical vector of an outflow, there was an overshoot shear initially, seems more like a gross out of trim condition with the thrust pitch couple not being countered. Not pretty. The THS position will be of interest, the elevators position and control force applied would be telling. Not the first time, won't be the last.
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Old 1st Sep 2023, 20:04
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Interim report out

There is an interim report (in German) at the BFU, page 17 of the pdf.
Wind shear escape, followed by a stall recovery.
https://www.bfu-web.de/DE/Publikatio...cationFile&v=2
My translation:
At 17:52:36 UTC, the flight crew lost visual reference to runway 25L at the decision height for the ILS approach and aborted the approach at an altitude of 684 ft AMSL. The pilot in command initiated a go-around. Shortly thereafter, a wind shear warning was issued in the cockpit. A wind shear escape maneuver was then flown, i.e. the pilot-in-command steered the aircraft into a climb and applied maximum engine thrust. At an altitude of 2,735 ft AMSL, at 17:53:19 UTC, the aircraft reached a pitch angle of +48 , the angle of attack (AOA) at this time was +3.69 , the airspeed was 117 kt IAS and the flaps were in the 20 position.
At 17:53:30 UTC, at an altitude of 2 843 ft AMSL, the stick shaker and the stall warning activated. The longitudinal pitch angle was +16 and the Angle of Attack reached +20.92. The main landing gear was extended. The minimum indicated airspeed was 86 kt IAS and the minimum ground speed was 60 kt. Shortly thereafter, the flight crew temporarily lost control of the aircraft and descended at a rate that reached a maximum of minus 5 500 ft/min. According to the flight crew, the Stall Recovery Procedure was applied. The descent was terminated at 17:53:49 UTC at 1913 ft AMSL. The flight crew stabilized the attitude of the aircraft and the windshear warning had deactivated itself.
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Old 1st Sep 2023, 21:00
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I muss he misreading somethig
Why would you extend the landing gear in a go around?
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Old 1st Sep 2023, 21:40
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Guess it was still out 60 s after GA at 320 ft AGL. Why still not retracted?
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Old 1st Sep 2023, 21:57
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Do not change gear or flap configuration until wind shear is no longer a factor, straight from the operations manual. Severe wind shear may also exceed the capability of the AFDS. Interesting is that the flight deck crew had a combined 31,000 hours on the 767.
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Old 2nd Sep 2023, 00:41
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Here in English
https://www.bfu-web.de/EN/Publicatio...cationFile&v=2
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Old 2nd Sep 2023, 05:41
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Interesting is that the flight deck crew had a combined 31,000 hours on the 767.
​​​​​​​17,000 of that was sitting in the jumpseat...
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Old 2nd Sep 2023, 08:26
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The jumpseat is often the best place to get an overview of what is happening and call it out. Most of us have fortunately only seen stuff like this in the sim and I am sure will have experienced the stick shaker in a windshear training scenario. Clearly pitch 48 is not great and what the flight director commanded would be interesting to know as well as aircraft weight. In monday morning quarter back mode the question I would ask is whether the captain taking control during the go-around was ideal.
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Old 2nd Sep 2023, 17:11
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Originally Posted by atakacs
I muss he misreading somethig
Why would you extend the landing gear in a go around?
the gear was always extended, they never retracted the gear when they initiated the GA
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Old 2nd Sep 2023, 22:24
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Originally Posted by lederhosen
Clearly pitch 48 is not great and what the flight director commanded would be interesting to know as well as aircraft weight.
I remember doing a couple of windshear scenarios that were from real accidents where one is pretty much just hanging on with large pitch changes and one almost chasing the gross aircraft pitch attitude changes with elevator inputs.

The statement of "Pitch 48 is not great" got me reading the report but look at the full sentence or two: At 2,735 ft AMSL, at 1753:19 UTC, the aircraft reached a pitch angle of +48 (pitch-up), the Angle of Attack (AOA) was +3.69 at the time, airspeed 117 kt IAS and flaps were in the 20 position. At 1753:30 UTC, at 2,843 ft AMSL, the Stick Shaker and the Stall Warning were active. The pitch angle was +16 and AOA reached +20.92.

It seems to me that while it may have only been momentary, they were in a better position at a pitch of 48 degrees than when they were at 16 degrees.

From an weather point of view, on can see that three minutes before the large pitch excursions, the weather report was SA 20/06/2023 17:50 UTC METAR EDDF 201750Z AUTO 23013G31KT 9000 0650 R25R/P2000N R25C/P2000N R25L/P2000N R18/P2000N +TSGRRA BCFG BKN///CB. And, it had been pretty much clear skies prior t this.

Therefore, one might ask, what was the view like on the weather radar and out the window in the minutes leading up to this event. This may have been easily preventable by discontinuing the approach early with a 90 degree turn.
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