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Worker ingested into engine

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Worker ingested into engine

Old 5th Jan 2023, 15:17
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by B2N2 View Post
Well…your opinion is hardly relevant as this is what was apparently the procedure with an APU inop that’s why #1 was shut down.
You don't need air on arrival before the second engine is shut down with APU u/s, just ground power.
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 15:17
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
One word….. Training
So you suggest seizure inducing flicker paint is a substitute for training then?
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 16:49
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Originally Posted by a5in_the_sim View Post
A beacon/light on the engine intake might make the association of "This Engine is Engine Running" more obvious. The ground staff rushing to open cargo doors adjacent to a still running Engine #2 in a common scenario. Rush Rush is the culture of LoCost Travel and contracted airport providers.

It's also more polite than my first idea which was a neon light next to the aircraft cargo door flashing "F##k Off Suicidal Tw#t"!

Why not just light up the spinner when the engine is turning?
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 18:40
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With tongue firmly in cheek, and as an alternative to the various "lighting" proposals, I did consider posting whether it would be possible to install a noise generator, or a rotating indicator on the front of a turbofan, so that you could get visual or aural warning of its operation.

In all seriousness, we often see the rotating nose cone (often with an spiral motif) on some installed turbofans. However, whilst I am not familiar with the Embraer in question, photos on the web seem to show that the engine nose cone is positioned well down the nacelle intake, and by the time you saw it you would probably already be accelerating towards it.

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Old 5th Jan 2023, 18:47
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DuncanDoenitz View Post
In all seriousness, we often see the rotating nose cone (often with an spiral motif) on some installed turbofans.
Those painted spinner cones are supposedly intended to help prevent bird strikes, not human ones.
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 19:13
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by B2N2 View Post
So you suggest seizure inducing flicker paint is a substitute for training then?
It does not need to flicker, simply illuminate saying danger engine running or the like, heck you could add a proximity movement sensor to turn it on and off.

Recurrent training is the way forward, but time constraints can often make people take stupid shortcuts and complacent.
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 19:45
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
Those painted spinner cones are supposedly intended to help prevent bird strikes, not human ones.
According to Boeing's Aero, they don't.

Which makes sense - at takeoff N1. the markings are virtually invisible.

Common misconceptions about bird strikes
A number of widespread misconceptions about bird strikes may give pilots a false sense of security and prevent them from reacting appropriately to the threat of a bird strike or an actual event. These misconceptions include:
o Airplane colors and jet engine spinner markings help to repel birds.
Aero 2011 Q3

Conversely, on the ramp, if you can't see the spinner markings - beware.
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 21:33
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MerseyView View Post
You don't need air on arrival before the second engine is shut down with APU u/s, just ground power.
So no need for conditioned air? Warm or cold?
No air for ventilation, systems cooling or keeping potable water for the galley available?
Alrighty gotcha.
Well apparently they didn’t listen as that’s exactly what they did.
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 21:47
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At least this tragedy should trigger more training for ground crews
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 22:38
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
According to Boeing's Aero, they don't.

Which makes sense - at takeoff N1. the markings are virtually invisible.
Well, according to several Boeing Propulsion types (and engine company types) I've talked to over the years, yes they do. Not so much at takeoff, but during approach/landing (the marks can be fairly dramatic at idle - especially the twirly ones)
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 23:36
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Originally Posted by B2N2 View Post
So no need for conditioned air? Warm or cold?
No air for ventilation, systems cooling or keeping potable water for the galley available?
Alrighty gotcha.
Well apparently they didn’t listen as that’s exactly what they did.
Ventilation is achieved by recirc fans powered by the electrical system from Ground Electrical Power.
Ditto systems cooling.
Potable water is not required during disembarkation or the few minutes preceding it after the engines are shut down. (Besides most modern jets have electrical compressors to pressurise the water tanks these days)
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Old 6th Jan 2023, 00:18
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
Well, according to several Boeing Propulsion types (and engine company types) I've talked to over the years, yes they do. Not so much at takeoff, but during approach/landing (the marks can be fairly dramatic at idle - especially the twirly ones)
Agreed, that what I was taught on my RAF engine courses, it is supposed to look like an eye when turning, and “mimics” nature where butterflies have large eye patterns on their wings to scare off predators such as birds, as well as indicating it is turning to warn Groundcrew, indeed that was also why the strobing prop design came out, though it had an hypnotic effect on some people.


​​​​​​…

Last edited by NutLoose; 6th Jan 2023 at 00:36.
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Old 6th Jan 2023, 02:00
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Originally Posted by HOVIS View Post
Ventilation is achieved by recirc fans powered by the electrical system from Ground Electrical Power.
Ditto systems cooling.
Potable water is not required during disembarkation or the few minutes preceding it after the engines are shut down. (Besides most modern jets have electrical compressors to pressurise the water tanks these days)
Surely you must be correct.
Now maybe put your money where you mouth is.
https://www.gofundme.com/f/courtney-...um=copy_link_a
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Old 6th Jan 2023, 05:42
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Sad event, hope Family taken care of.
During my ramp training 1968, we would have to duck under the fuselage of the Viscount to pull the GPU plug after engine starts, Dart noise was enough warning, but my colleague lost an eye from ducking into an antenna.
Doing my on job engine run F27, I asked where is the pre-start check for anti collision light, reply none fitted on this ship; as name states 'anti collision' Not anti ingestion.
1978 during an engine, B737-200, run the mechanic doing the trim adjustment got sucked in, engine surged and Engineer immediately shut it down, mechanic lost fingers on one hand, fixed inlet guide vanes saved him from more loss.
Noticed on recent flight on ATR72 the #2 engine was S/D first and prop brake assist, perhaps to allow GPU connect, the pax and bag loading was #1 side.
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Old 6th Jan 2023, 08:57
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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JT8D IGVs have reportedly saved a fair number of ground crew over the years.
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Old 6th Jan 2023, 16:38
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
... you would think an LED illuminated engine running sign....
And when that is INOP ??????
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Old 6th Jan 2023, 16:51
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by B2N2 View Post
Surely you must be correct.
Now maybe put your money where you mouth is.
https://www.gofundme.com/f/courtney-...um=copy_link_a
In what way will me throwing a few quid at this fund prove my point?

I merely explained what happens in real life. I've never seen anyone try and hook up conditioned air while an engine is running. Electrical power, yes.

If you are saying that this incident was due to someone trying to connect conditioned air please could you let us all know where you got your information.
Is it common practice in some parts of the world?
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Old 6th Jan 2023, 17:33
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Originally Posted by theFirstDave View Post
And when that is INOP ??????
If we are going down the illuminated-indicator route, then "Green light = Safe" would be a better choice than "Red light = Danger". Bulb-/System-failure" (or indeed, not installed on this aircraft) defaults to "Unsafe" indication.
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Old 7th Jan 2023, 01:57
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sleeve Wing View Post
Anything to do with reduced turnround times/efficiency drives ? The chap obviously felt he could get across to the other side to get the holds open earlier or to be in position to refuel, ..... then cut it too fine.
The 737 has the same lowslung configuration and had a mandatory 10 metre arc (IIRC) exclusion zone until the engines were stopped. This aircraft was apparently taxying in and could well have increased engine speed again until on the gate. Interesting to hear what the enquiry has to say about company apron safety procedures.
Chappesse....she had three children
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Old 7th Jan 2023, 02:46
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Originally Posted by HOVIS View Post
In what way will me throwing a few quid at this fund prove my point?

I merely explained what happens in real life. I've never seen anyone try and hook up conditioned air while an engine is running. Electrical power, yes.

If you are saying that this incident was due to someone trying to connect conditioned air please could you let us all know where you got your information.
Is it common practice in some parts of the world?
You really don’t get it do you?
The air hookup is on lower left, reason for engine #1 being shut down and #2 kept running till ground power was established.
Ramp worker got ingested by engine #2 in an attempt to open one of the cargo doors.
Like I stated earlier the air hookup theory is why #1 would have been shut down.
I never stated that it was the case just one of the possibilities till someone said you don’t need air and that’s where the mudslinging started.


Last edited by B2N2; 7th Jan 2023 at 02:59.
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