Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Accidents and Close Calls
Reload this Page >

PA28 Accident near Venice Beach Florida

Accidents and Close Calls Discussion on accidents, close calls, and other unplanned aviation events, so we can learn from them, and be better pilots ourselves.

PA28 Accident near Venice Beach Florida

Old 8th Dec 2022, 14:32
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: UK
Age: 63
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
PA28 Accident near Venice Beach Florida

Accident on 3rd December.

A 1976 Piper Warrior with a tail number of N4676F took off at night from Venice Beach and crashed about 2 1/2 miles off shore. The pilot had his wife and 12 year old daughter on board. The wife's body was found floating in the sea, the daughter was found dead in the back seat of the wreckage and the husband's body has not been found. The plane was found in 15 feet of water.

The NTSB have salvaged the plane. There was no distress call made. There are similarities to the JFK Junior accident being night time over water with no visual references. It was a rental aircraft and I wonder how experienced the pilot was.

draglift is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2022, 16:50
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 14,609
Likes: 0
Received 28 Likes on 13 Posts
Family originally from Queensland, Australia.
DaveReidUK is offline  
Old 9th Dec 2022, 01:34
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,937
Likes: 0
Received 50 Likes on 24 Posts
I wonder how experienced the pilot was.
Not very, started flying late December 2021, went solo 21 March 2022, photo in link. Takes little imagination for the cause unfortunately.

https://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...9d8857085e6cf8
megan is online now  
Old 9th Dec 2022, 12:47
  #4 (permalink)  
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Age: 61
Posts: 5,350
Received 10 Likes on 7 Posts
This is obviously very sad. I was very young when I started flying, and at the minimum age for the licenses I earned. That had the unintended advantage of my looking young everywhere I flew. In hindsight, an aviation community in both Canada and the US was caringly watching over me. As I looked young, I would occasionally receive some words from the wise, even from elder pilots I did not know. "I wouldn't go now son....". As I have done a lot of advanced GA training to more established PPLs (nearly all male) who had found their way in life to a position where they could afford the big GA adventure, I have noticed a little more of a "type A" personality in many. Sure, this is how they earned their way into affording an expensive amphibian, but it didn't mean that they had the wisdom to decide not to go. They'd have it equipped very well, so it was capable, but their training, experience and wisdom was not there yet.

That, and the sense of (maybe even just self imposed) pressure to go when passengers are involved, particularly for night flights. The reminder lesson the VFR GA pilot group should have learned when JFK Jr. crashed should be refreshed from time to time - that fact that you can, does not mean you should, and passenger pressure should definitely not sway your "I think I won't go" into a decision to go.
Pilot DAR is offline  
Old 9th Dec 2022, 18:16
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,448
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Black hole conditions claim experienced pilots as well as the inexperienced.

Night training needs to include takeoffs under the hood and exposure to actual black hole conditions until the student is competent with instruments at night and knows when they are needed.
RatherBeFlying is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2022, 01:00
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,937
Likes: 0
Received 50 Likes on 24 Posts
In the USA that there is no night training requirement beyond FAR 61.57 is my reading
You cannot act as pilot in command (PIC) while carrying passengers from 1 hour after sunset to 1 hour before sunrise unless you have made three takeoffs and landings to a full stop in the same category and class of aircraft within the preceding 90 days. This is a minimum requirement; additional training or practice may be required to achieve a reasonable level of proficiency
Doing three circuits with an instructor at a well lit airport at night is not night flying, his night flying experience will be interesting..
megan is online now  
Old 10th Dec 2022, 01:36
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: FL, USA
Posts: 3,045
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by megan View Post
In the USA that there is no night training requirement beyond FAR 61.57 is my reading Doing three circuits with an instructor at a well lit airport at night is not night flying, his night flying experience will be interesting..
Well first of all youíre wrong about the night flying requirements under FAA.
61.109
3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments, including straight and level flight, constant airspeed climbs and descents, turns to a heading, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, radio communications, and the use of navigation systems/facilities and radar services appropriate to instrument flight
and

​​​​​​​3 hours of night flight training in a single-engine airplane that includes -

(i) One cross-country flight of over 100 nautical miles total distance; and

(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.
Unfortunately he should have never taken off from runway 23 with an early turn out of the water.
He should have used runway 5 towards a lighted area or runway 31.
I am very familiar with VNC airport as I used to take students there on night cross countries.
I used to show them the additional dangers of using runway 5 for landing as your turn from downwind to base leg and (in a high wing) part of your turn to final is without any visual reference.
Runway 13 or 23 for landing an runway 5 or 31 for departure.
I wouldnít say VNC is notorious for this but there have been more fatal accidents at night, quick search shows 3 (4?) fatal loss of control accidents at night in the last 20 years.
https://www.airnav.com/airport/KVNC
B2N2 is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2022, 04:34
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,937
Likes: 0
Received 50 Likes on 24 Posts
Thanks for the elaboration B2, not familiar with FARs and .57 was the only thing thrown up in a search, that's why I said "by my reading"..
megan is online now  
Old 10th Dec 2022, 15:08
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: FL, USA
Posts: 3,045
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by megan View Post
Thanks for the elaboration B2, not familiar with FARs and .57 was the only thing thrown up in a search, that's why I said "by my reading"..
No worries, in the USA there is no additional night rating as itís included in the regular training. I wonder if the pilot in question did his night training in the Tampa area with plenty of lights and visual references at night.
As a standard investigation practice the flightschool and the instructor will get a visit from the FAA/NTSB.
B2N2 is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2022, 18:01
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Any idea when the 100 nm night cross country requirement became effective? When I did my PPL training back in the 70s, there was no such requirement.
BFSGrad is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2022, 12:57
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: FL, USA
Posts: 3,045
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Donít know but it doesnít amount to much, 50NM each way.
Its up to the instructor to make it a valuable experience.
B2N2 is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2022, 20:27
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 451
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by BFSGrad View Post
Any idea when the 100 nm night cross country requirement became effective? When I did my PPL training back in the 70s, there was no such requirement.
It certainly existed in '97 when I earned my FAA private pilot certificate.
733driver is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.