PA28 Accident near Venice Beach Florida

[draglift]

Accident on 3rd December.

A 1976 Piper Warrior with a tail number of N4676F took off at night from Venice Beach and crashed about 2 1/2 miles off shore. The pilot had his wife and 12 year old daughter on board. The wife's body was found floating in the sea, the daughter was found dead in the back seat of the wreckage and the husband's body has not been found. The plane was found in 15 feet of water.

The NTSB have salvaged the plane. There was no distress call made. There are similarities to the JFK Junior accident being night time over water with no visual references. It was a rental aircraft and I wonder how experienced the pilot was.

[DaveReidUK]

Family originally from Queensland, Australia.

[megan]

I wonder how experienced the pilot was.

Not very, started flying late December 2021, went solo 21 March 2022, photo in link. Takes little imagination for the cause unfortunately.

https://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...9d8857085e6cf8

[Pilot DAR]

This is obviously very sad. I was very young when I started flying, and at the minimum age for the licenses I earned. That had the unintended advantage of my looking young everywhere I flew. In hindsight, an aviation community in both Canada and the US was caringly watching over me. As I looked young, I would occasionally receive some words from the wise, even from elder pilots I did not know. "I wouldn't go now son....". As I have done a lot of advanced GA training to more established PPLs (nearly all male) who had found their way in life to a position where they could afford the big GA adventure, I have noticed a little more of a "type A" personality in many. Sure, this is how they earned their way into affording an expensive amphibian, but it didn't mean that they had the wisdom to decide not to go. They'd have it equipped very well, so it was capable, but their training, experience and wisdom was not there yet.

That, and the sense of (maybe even just self imposed) pressure to go when passengers are involved, particularly for night flights. The reminder lesson the VFR GA pilot group should have learned when JFK Jr. crashed should be refreshed from time to time - that fact that you can, does not mean you should, and passenger pressure should definitely not sway your "I think I won't go" into a decision to go.

[RatherBeFlying]

Black hole conditions claim experienced pilots as well as the inexperienced.

Night training needs to include takeoffs under the hood and exposure to actual black hole conditions until the student is competent with instruments at night and knows when they are needed.

[megan]

In the USA that there is no night training requirement beyond FAR 61.57 is my reading

You cannot act as pilot in command (PIC) while carrying passengers from 1 hour after sunset to 1 hour before sunrise unless you have made three takeoffs and landings to a full stop in the same category and class of aircraft within the preceding 90 days. This is a minimum requirement; additional training or practice may be required to achieve a reasonable level of proficiency

Doing three circuits with an instructor at a well lit airport at night is not night flying, his night flying experience will be interesting..

[B2N2]

Originally Posted by megan

In the USA that there is no night training requirement beyond FAR 61.57 is my reading Doing three circuits with an instructor at a well lit airport at night is not night flying, his night flying experience will be interesting..

Well first of all you’re wrong about the night flying requirements under FAA.
61.109

3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments, including straight and level flight, constant airspeed climbs and descents, turns to a heading, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, radio communications, and the use of navigation systems/facilities and radar services appropriate to instrument flight

and

​​​​​​​3 hours of night flight training in a single-engine airplane that includes -

(i) One cross-country flight of over 100 nautical miles total distance; and

(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.

Unfortunately he should have never taken off from runway 23 with an early turn out of the water.
He should have used runway 5 towards a lighted area or runway 31.
I am very familiar with VNC airport as I used to take students there on night cross countries.
I used to show them the additional dangers of using runway 5 for landing as your turn from downwind to base leg and (in a high wing) part of your turn to final is without any visual reference.
Runway 13 or 23 for landing an runway 5 or 31 for departure.
I wouldn’t say VNC is notorious for this but there have been more fatal accidents at night, quick search shows 3 (4?) fatal loss of control accidents at night in the last 20 years.
https://www.airnav.com/airport/KVNC

[megan]

Thanks for the elaboration B2, not familiar with FARs and .57 was the only thing thrown up in a search, that's why I said "by my reading"..

[B2N2]

Originally Posted by megan

Thanks for the elaboration B2, not familiar with FARs and .57 was the only thing thrown up in a search, that's why I said "by my reading"..

No worries, in the USA there is no additional night rating as it’s included in the regular training. I wonder if the pilot in question did his night training in the Tampa area with plenty of lights and visual references at night.
As a standard investigation practice the flightschool and the instructor will get a visit from the FAA/NTSB.

[BFSGrad]

Any idea when the 100 nm night cross country requirement became effective? When I did my PPL training back in the 70s, there was no such requirement.

[B2N2]

Don’t know but it doesn’t amount to much, 50NM each way.
Its up to the instructor to make it a valuable experience.

[733driver]

Originally Posted by BFSGrad

Any idea when the 100 nm night cross country requirement became effective? When I did my PPL training back in the 70s, there was no such requirement.

It certainly existed in '97 when I earned my FAA private pilot certificate.