Korean Air A330 off runway in Phillipines
BBC news are saying the pax were taken to local hotels, which I find odd if Cebu was the destination!
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As for the assumption that the pilot paintied himself in a corner…….We don’t know what the weather was during the decision for the second approach. But if it was reasonable with Manila still as an alternate(which subsequently was no longer able to be an alternate due to performance issues related to damage) he could have been presented with a situation where a very bad landing attempt reduced the options to mediocre airports.
That is the frequent problem with alternates…….it assumes an aircraft with no performance degradation and minimal fuel.
There was a carrier with a CRJ in my country that encountered a situation of requiring to divert due to weather with flaps stuck at full. They didn’t have much fuel when they landed.
Where else would they be taken for the night?
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According to a passenger on reddit or avherald, carry-ons were mostly left behind and Korean could not get on the plane to remove them - so many/most passengers had no passports to go through customs, thus stuck in hotels until they got their passports and went through customs.
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[fill in the nationality] should not fly, as simple as that.
Does that stand for the Canadian A320 trying to land on 4 aircraft on a taxiway as well?
Or the US flight crew that drove a B767 into the water off Houston spoiling the delivery time of Amazon Prime?
How about... AF447?
How about... the Rostov on Don B738?
How about... worlds wonders doing a downwards G/A in an A320 that accelerated all the way down to 50AGL?
How about a B737CL that taxies with a bit of swagger after a 4g landing in scrumpy country?
How about a B777 forgetting to climb on a departure,
How about a B777 retracting the gear on a G/A and settling onto the ground?
American Airlines flight 2341?
American Airlines flight 300?
American Airlines flight 567?
American Airlines flight 1586?
American Airlines flight 331?
etc,
should we start on Delta, United, Lufthansa, Air France, Birdseed?
The MD11F that missed the runway at Ted Stevens 2 times, having got to close to 360 kts at 3000' on the arrival into FAA airspace? With a constant litany of "WHOOP, WHOOP, PULL UP", counting those was tedious. Apparently the FAA licensed foreign pilot never bothered to read §91.117. What got me on that was, when he got to 1 nm final with a bit of flap, no gear and doing 260kts, @ 800'AGL, he finally decided to do a.... something, I know not what. It was best described as a wobbly RH wiggle to return to the same place in space, at same configuration, speed, and altitude, and then finally did a formal go around. Same guy decided to take off with all 3 IRS' with warnings on check position, and lost all nav functions when he hit the go bar.
KAL is an interesting place, it has some of the best engineers on the planet. It does have some institutional issues with a punitive culture, which is in keeping with being in a state of war for 70 years, so, they take punishment to a different level to what the west is used to.
There are some really good Korean pilots out there, a couple of the best are now dead, but they were brilliant. There are some that would stand their ground anywhere in the world, and do. There have been some excellent foreign pilots there, and there were some that used P-51 pretty enthusiastically. A number of foreigners were treated poorly by KAL, but not that much differently to how KAL treated Koreans, other than those that had F-5A time... You might be surprised by the statistics of events/nationality, and the absolutely dumb as dog dirt events that were done by [insert nationality]'s.
As far as this crew goes, I would think it prudent to hold off until more information is at hand before commenting on a given nationality's competency. Remember, it wasn't Indonesians or Ethiopians that designed the B/S system that ended up killing 346 people
On saving the day, there is one particular case where that certainly is a true statement, involves Stuart AFB. KAL additionally had a number of events where the decision of the PIC of non Korean nationality took a lot of effort to be swallowed.
The best helicopter pilots I ever flew with were Japanese, Japanese, French and Australian, in that order. The most impressive CRM I have ever evaluated was by a Russian pilot. The most beautiful set of hands I have ever seen fly an aircraft were attached to an Ethiopian, one who was also well known in the system, and who on entry into a room could make those red necked pilots that spent their time talking about skin colour fawn obsequiously, they had been fortunate to have this gifted man do instruction on their jumbo's. I had the previlidge of flying with Bob Hoover and Bob Love in a T28 and P51 on the same day, to have done training with "airbum" in his Pitts, and the Ethiopian landed a B744 in interesting conditions into JFK that were more impressive. The best TRI I have ever flown with was an Indian... the most knowledgable pilot I have ever worked with on aircraft technical matters was an Iranian.
You are welcome to your opinion, I think there is more to see when eyes are open.
Does that stand for the Canadian A320 trying to land on 4 aircraft on a taxiway as well?
Or the US flight crew that drove a B767 into the water off Houston spoiling the delivery time of Amazon Prime?
How about... AF447?
How about... the Rostov on Don B738?
How about... worlds wonders doing a downwards G/A in an A320 that accelerated all the way down to 50AGL?
How about a B737CL that taxies with a bit of swagger after a 4g landing in scrumpy country?
How about a B777 forgetting to climb on a departure,
How about a B777 retracting the gear on a G/A and settling onto the ground?
American Airlines flight 2341?
American Airlines flight 300?
American Airlines flight 567?
American Airlines flight 1586?
American Airlines flight 331?
etc,
should we start on Delta, United, Lufthansa, Air France, Birdseed?
The MD11F that missed the runway at Ted Stevens 2 times, having got to close to 360 kts at 3000' on the arrival into FAA airspace? With a constant litany of "WHOOP, WHOOP, PULL UP", counting those was tedious. Apparently the FAA licensed foreign pilot never bothered to read §91.117. What got me on that was, when he got to 1 nm final with a bit of flap, no gear and doing 260kts, @ 800'AGL, he finally decided to do a.... something, I know not what. It was best described as a wobbly RH wiggle to return to the same place in space, at same configuration, speed, and altitude, and then finally did a formal go around. Same guy decided to take off with all 3 IRS' with warnings on check position, and lost all nav functions when he hit the go bar.
KAL is an interesting place, it has some of the best engineers on the planet. It does have some institutional issues with a punitive culture, which is in keeping with being in a state of war for 70 years, so, they take punishment to a different level to what the west is used to.
There are some really good Korean pilots out there, a couple of the best are now dead, but they were brilliant. There are some that would stand their ground anywhere in the world, and do. There have been some excellent foreign pilots there, and there were some that used P-51 pretty enthusiastically. A number of foreigners were treated poorly by KAL, but not that much differently to how KAL treated Koreans, other than those that had F-5A time... You might be surprised by the statistics of events/nationality, and the absolutely dumb as dog dirt events that were done by [insert nationality]'s.
As far as this crew goes, I would think it prudent to hold off until more information is at hand before commenting on a given nationality's competency. Remember, it wasn't Indonesians or Ethiopians that designed the B/S system that ended up killing 346 people
On saving the day, there is one particular case where that certainly is a true statement, involves Stuart AFB. KAL additionally had a number of events where the decision of the PIC of non Korean nationality took a lot of effort to be swallowed.
The best helicopter pilots I ever flew with were Japanese, Japanese, French and Australian, in that order. The most impressive CRM I have ever evaluated was by a Russian pilot. The most beautiful set of hands I have ever seen fly an aircraft were attached to an Ethiopian, one who was also well known in the system, and who on entry into a room could make those red necked pilots that spent their time talking about skin colour fawn obsequiously, they had been fortunate to have this gifted man do instruction on their jumbo's. I had the previlidge of flying with Bob Hoover and Bob Love in a T28 and P51 on the same day, to have done training with "airbum" in his Pitts, and the Ethiopian landed a B744 in interesting conditions into JFK that were more impressive. The best TRI I have ever flown with was an Indian... the most knowledgable pilot I have ever worked with on aircraft technical matters was an Iranian.
You are welcome to your opinion, I think there is more to see when eyes are open.
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From the Chart Mactan Airport only 3310 x 45 meters runway, there might be rubber spot existed plus the fact the runway is grooved. To many factors but for this type of runway in Philippines this is not out of ordinary, hence, even its privately owned it has a lot of risk factor to be account for. As my own point of view, Factors are not just based on the Pilot performance its self but must be all accounted for including the airport. It seem as i have check some website there not much to learn about the airport in Philippines as there is no report that is publish for the civil authority to be learned from it. If they were, these could have prevented. I'm sure the locals who is familiar with the Airport knows all the risk that was not published for other Airlines to study.
Hoping to wait for the investigation report to be publicly view in order to learned the cause of the incident.
Hoping to wait for the investigation report to be publicly view in order to learned the cause of the incident.
According to a passenger on reddit or avherald, carry-ons were mostly left behind and Korean could not get on the plane to remove them - so many/most passengers had no passports to go through customs, thus stuck in hotels until they got their passports and went through customs.
Quite - phone wallet and passport on you during flight. Most other things can be fixed later!
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Wherever they were planning to go regardless of whether their aircraft went off the end of the runway - it wasn't a diversion to a strange airport! Probably more pleasant to be with family/friends/at home etc, than in some hotel room. Belongings can be brought later as if lost luggage.
Therefore, the hotel thing makes sense to me.
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Your original quote has hotels as plural. It now appears that you have changed it to singular. Perhaps time to admit that you have no idea of any hotel details and that most of the pax needed hotels regardless of the outcome of the flight instead of your assumption that most pax had a local home to go to.
Back to aircraft details please.
Back to aircraft details please.
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Hello FDR!
Thank you for enlightening me on the braking system logic of the Airbus A330 series. I did not know that nose strut compression was necessary for TR use, but I would think it would be a safeguard against a sudden deceleration causing the craft to slam down on its nosegear and possibly damaging same. The 737NG/MAX will autobrake as soon as the MLG wheels spin up past 60 knots. The airplane is prevented from impacting its nosegear after sudden deceleration by a redundant, failsafe system: two well-trained and proficient pilots applying aft elevator.
We are AVIATORS, gentlemen! Let's not get so complacent that we allow system shortcomings to catch us in the weeds. Happily, no one was injured, but I might guess that the return Cebu-Inchon flight may have been cancelled or severely delayed.
Your comment "lift up your feet" had me in stitches! Thank you for such an informative post!
Fly Safe!
Thank you for enlightening me on the braking system logic of the Airbus A330 series. I did not know that nose strut compression was necessary for TR use, but I would think it would be a safeguard against a sudden deceleration causing the craft to slam down on its nosegear and possibly damaging same. The 737NG/MAX will autobrake as soon as the MLG wheels spin up past 60 knots. The airplane is prevented from impacting its nosegear after sudden deceleration by a redundant, failsafe system: two well-trained and proficient pilots applying aft elevator.
We are AVIATORS, gentlemen! Let's not get so complacent that we allow system shortcomings to catch us in the weeds. Happily, no one was injured, but I might guess that the return Cebu-Inchon flight may have been cancelled or severely delayed.
Your comment "lift up your feet" had me in stitches! Thank you for such an informative post!
Fly Safe!
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[fill in the nationality] should not fly, as simple as that.
Does that stand for the Canadian A320 trying to land on 4 aircraft on a taxiway as well?
Or the US flight crew that drove a B767 into the water off Houston spoiling the delivery time of Amazon Prime?
How about... AF447?
How about... the Rostov on Don B738?
How about... worlds wonders doing a downwards G/A in an A320 that accelerated all the way down to 50AGL?
How about a B737CL that taxies with a bit of swagger after a 4g landing in scrumpy country?
How about a B777 forgetting to climb on a departure,
How about a B777 retracting the gear on a G/A and settling onto the ground?
American Airlines flight 2341?
American Airlines flight 300?
American Airlines flight 567?
American Airlines flight 1586?
American Airlines flight 331?
etc,
should we start on Delta, United, Lufthansa, Air France, Birdseed?
The MD11F that missed the runway at Ted Stevens 2 times, having got to close to 360 kts at 3000' on the arrival into FAA airspace? With a constant litany of "WHOOP, WHOOP, PULL UP", counting those was tedious. Apparently the FAA licensed foreign pilot never bothered to read §91.117. What got me on that was, when he got to 1 nm final with a bit of flap, no gear and doing 260kts, @ 800'AGL, he finally decided to do a.... something, I know not what. It was best described as a wobbly RH wiggle to return to the same place in space, at same configuration, speed, and altitude, and then finally did a formal go around. Same guy decided to take off with all 3 IRS' with warnings on check position, and lost all nav functions when he hit the go bar.
KAL is an interesting place, it has some of the best engineers on the planet. It does have some institutional issues with a punitive culture, which is in keeping with being in a state of war for 70 years, so, they take punishment to a different level to what the west is used to.
There are some really good Korean pilots out there, a couple of the best are now dead, but they were brilliant. There are some that would stand their ground anywhere in the world, and do. There have been some excellent foreign pilots there, and there were some that used P-51 pretty enthusiastically. A number of foreigners were treated poorly by KAL, but not that much differently to how KAL treated Koreans, other than those that had F-5A time... You might be surprised by the statistics of events/nationality, and the absolutely dumb as dog dirt events that were done by [insert nationality]'s.
As far as this crew goes, I would think it prudent to hold off until more information is at hand before commenting on a given nationality's competency. Remember, it wasn't Indonesians or Ethiopians that designed the B/S system that ended up killing 346 people
On saving the day, there is one particular case where that certainly is a true statement, involves Stuart AFB. KAL additionally had a number of events where the decision of the PIC of non Korean nationality took a lot of effort to be swallowed.
"The best helicopter pilots I ever flew with were Japanese, Japanese, French and Australian, in that order. The most impressive CRM I have ever evaluated was by a Russian pilot. The most beautiful set of hands I have ever seen fly an aircraft were attached to an Ethiopian, one who was also well known in the system, and who on entry into a room could make those red necked pilots that spent their time talking about skin colour fawn obsequiously, they had been fortunate to have this gifted man do instruction on their jumbo's. I had the previlidge of flying with Bob Hoover and Bob Love in a T28 and P51 on the same day, to have done training with "airbum" in his Pitts, and the Ethiopian landed a B744 in interesting conditions into JFK that were more impressive. The best TRI I have ever flown with was an Indian... the most knowledgable pilot I have ever worked with on aircraft technical matters was an Iranian.
You are welcome to your opinion, I think there is more to see when eyes are open.
Does that stand for the Canadian A320 trying to land on 4 aircraft on a taxiway as well?
Or the US flight crew that drove a B767 into the water off Houston spoiling the delivery time of Amazon Prime?
How about... AF447?
How about... the Rostov on Don B738?
How about... worlds wonders doing a downwards G/A in an A320 that accelerated all the way down to 50AGL?
How about a B737CL that taxies with a bit of swagger after a 4g landing in scrumpy country?
How about a B777 forgetting to climb on a departure,
How about a B777 retracting the gear on a G/A and settling onto the ground?
American Airlines flight 2341?
American Airlines flight 300?
American Airlines flight 567?
American Airlines flight 1586?
American Airlines flight 331?
etc,
should we start on Delta, United, Lufthansa, Air France, Birdseed?
The MD11F that missed the runway at Ted Stevens 2 times, having got to close to 360 kts at 3000' on the arrival into FAA airspace? With a constant litany of "WHOOP, WHOOP, PULL UP", counting those was tedious. Apparently the FAA licensed foreign pilot never bothered to read §91.117. What got me on that was, when he got to 1 nm final with a bit of flap, no gear and doing 260kts, @ 800'AGL, he finally decided to do a.... something, I know not what. It was best described as a wobbly RH wiggle to return to the same place in space, at same configuration, speed, and altitude, and then finally did a formal go around. Same guy decided to take off with all 3 IRS' with warnings on check position, and lost all nav functions when he hit the go bar.
KAL is an interesting place, it has some of the best engineers on the planet. It does have some institutional issues with a punitive culture, which is in keeping with being in a state of war for 70 years, so, they take punishment to a different level to what the west is used to.
There are some really good Korean pilots out there, a couple of the best are now dead, but they were brilliant. There are some that would stand their ground anywhere in the world, and do. There have been some excellent foreign pilots there, and there were some that used P-51 pretty enthusiastically. A number of foreigners were treated poorly by KAL, but not that much differently to how KAL treated Koreans, other than those that had F-5A time... You might be surprised by the statistics of events/nationality, and the absolutely dumb as dog dirt events that were done by [insert nationality]'s.
As far as this crew goes, I would think it prudent to hold off until more information is at hand before commenting on a given nationality's competency. Remember, it wasn't Indonesians or Ethiopians that designed the B/S system that ended up killing 346 people
On saving the day, there is one particular case where that certainly is a true statement, involves Stuart AFB. KAL additionally had a number of events where the decision of the PIC of non Korean nationality took a lot of effort to be swallowed.
"The best helicopter pilots I ever flew with were Japanese, Japanese, French and Australian, in that order. The most impressive CRM I have ever evaluated was by a Russian pilot. The most beautiful set of hands I have ever seen fly an aircraft were attached to an Ethiopian, one who was also well known in the system, and who on entry into a room could make those red necked pilots that spent their time talking about skin colour fawn obsequiously, they had been fortunate to have this gifted man do instruction on their jumbo's. I had the previlidge of flying with Bob Hoover and Bob Love in a T28 and P51 on the same day, to have done training with "airbum" in his Pitts, and the Ethiopian landed a B744 in interesting conditions into JFK that were more impressive. The best TRI I have ever flown with was an Indian... the most knowledgable pilot I have ever worked with on aircraft technical matters was an Iranian.
You are welcome to your opinion, I think there is more to see when eyes are open.
Well, said, FDR! Your depth of knowledge and wealth of experience are commendable.
Hello FDR!
Thank you for enlightening me on the braking system logic of the Airbus A330 series. I did not know that nose strut compression was necessary for TR use, but I would think it would be a safeguard against a sudden deceleration causing the craft to slam down on its nosegear and possibly damaging same. The 737NG/MAX will autobrake as soon as the MLG wheels spin up past 60 knots. The airplane is prevented from impacting its nosegear after sudden deceleration by a redundant, failsafe system: two well-trained and proficient pilots applying aft elevator.
We are AVIATORS, gentlemen! Let's not get so complacent that we allow system shortcomings to catch us in the weeds. Happily, no one was injured, but I might guess that the return Cebu-Inchon flight may have been cancelled or severely delayed.
Your comment "lift up your feet" had me in stitches! Thank you for such an informative post!
Fly Safe!
Thank you for enlightening me on the braking system logic of the Airbus A330 series. I did not know that nose strut compression was necessary for TR use, but I would think it would be a safeguard against a sudden deceleration causing the craft to slam down on its nosegear and possibly damaging same. The 737NG/MAX will autobrake as soon as the MLG wheels spin up past 60 knots. The airplane is prevented from impacting its nosegear after sudden deceleration by a redundant, failsafe system: two well-trained and proficient pilots applying aft elevator.
We are AVIATORS, gentlemen! Let's not get so complacent that we allow system shortcomings to catch us in the weeds. Happily, no one was injured, but I might guess that the return Cebu-Inchon flight may have been cancelled or severely delayed.
Your comment "lift up your feet" had me in stitches! Thank you for such an informative post!
Fly Safe!
The NLG controls the autobrake max rate application, the rate is modulated at a lower rate until the NLG strut compression occurs. Stops wrinkling tubes ..
The TR logic comes from the MLG untilt sensors. And I will stand corrected, but any one of those being made will permit TR to be used by the selection of TR by the flight crew.
Sorry if that was suggesting otherwise.
I'm often surprised by the lack of empathy when topics such as this make their way onto the forum. I wonder if it's a matter of psychological relief, knowing statistically accidents will happen and that it was not to “me” that it happened? Could it be a deluded belief that there are no circumstances that provide a degree of complexity where I would run out of ideas before I run out of fuel?
There is no empirical evidence to show that this crew was less well trained or less competent than any contributor to this forum. Until we understand the complexity of the situation that this crew faced perhaps we should leave it at that.
There is no empirical evidence to show that this crew was less well trained or less competent than any contributor to this forum. Until we understand the complexity of the situation that this crew faced perhaps we should leave it at that.
Nowadays, there is a whole extra raft of on-line tests one has to pass - maths, verbal comprehension and IQ type pattern recognition - both written and CBT style, along with telephone pre-interviews, leading to recruitment days with group exercises etc, before one gets anywhere near the head office interview room or the Sim test.
Once employed, there is CRM training, and accident analysis leading to specific focussed training, along with regular multiple system failure scenarios in our recurrent Sims.
As far as poor weather is concerned, do pilots not still read the NOTAMS and Wx for their destination and alternate airfields during their pre-flight briefing, and fuel their aircraft accordingly?
So I think we could be forgiven for thinking that pilots should be getting ever more competent and well trained as time goes by, and this could be why there is such mystification, and perhaps even outrage, when "simple" accidents like this continue to happen?
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Years ago; to get an airline pilot job required an ATPL, a face to face interview with the Chief Pilot, and a SIM check.
Nowadays, there is a whole extra raft of on-line tests one has to pass - maths, verbal comprehension and IQ type pattern recognition - both written and CBT style, along with telephone pre-interviews, leading to recruitment days with group exercises etc, before one gets anywhere near the head office interview room or the Sim test.
Once employed, there is CRM training, and accident analysis leading to specific focussed training, along with regular multiple system failure scenarios in our recurrent Sims.
As far as poor weather is concerned, do pilots not still read the NOTAMS and Wx for their destination and alternate airfields during their pre-flight briefing, and fuel their aircraft accordingly?
So I think we could be forgiven for thinking that pilots should be getting ever more competent and well trained as time goes by, and this could be why there is such mystification, and perhaps even outrage, when "simple" accidents like this continue to happen?
Nowadays, there is a whole extra raft of on-line tests one has to pass - maths, verbal comprehension and IQ type pattern recognition - both written and CBT style, along with telephone pre-interviews, leading to recruitment days with group exercises etc, before one gets anywhere near the head office interview room or the Sim test.
Once employed, there is CRM training, and accident analysis leading to specific focussed training, along with regular multiple system failure scenarios in our recurrent Sims.
As far as poor weather is concerned, do pilots not still read the NOTAMS and Wx for their destination and alternate airfields during their pre-flight briefing, and fuel their aircraft accordingly?
So I think we could be forgiven for thinking that pilots should be getting ever more competent and well trained as time goes by, and this could be why there is such mystification, and perhaps even outrage, when "simple" accidents like this continue to happen?