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Unreported light aircraft accident

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Unreported light aircraft accident

Old 2nd May 2023, 22:48
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Good question about the rudder pedals.
If you don't have your feet on the pedals, you wont be tempted to use them. Dont worry about the ball not being in the middle. Let the aircraft settle down and do it's thing. Sure the a/c won't fly straight but it should keep the blue side up. If one exists the cloud on or very near the deck, hopefully the vertical speed and horizontal speed, wont be too high, therefore a good chance of walking away.

Hand is only on the stick or control column, to ensure the airlerons are kept neutral.

Basically let everything go and sit back and enjoy ride.


Last edited by RichardJones; 2nd May 2023 at 23:37.
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Old 3rd May 2023, 01:42
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Wow. You guys are already dead.
at the expense of an hour or two of primary instrument instruction.
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Old 3rd May 2023, 06:16
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Sure the a/c won't fly straight but it should keep the blue side up
Not exactly a vote of confidence then. Given that your aircraft is side slipping (ball not centred) it will be in a spiral, the degree being subject to type aircraft and in flight conditions (power, speed, flap).

421, you're on the money. If caught on top yell for help and ask for the nearest VMC, one of our chaps rescued a guy caught on top, had him fly loose formation and lead him down through the soup. Instrument flying is not all that difficult and is a skill easily picked up, I'm talking just the basic keeping the aircraft upright, home computer sim program would soon have anyone up to speed. Remember Lindbergh flew the Atlantic on basic panel, as did Kingsford Smith making the first Pacific crossing, and the early airlines.

Trying the proposed let down is foolish in the extreme, you can't be assured as to position or cloud base - the cloud may be sitting on top of elevated terrain, get on the radio.


Kingsford Smith - Southern Cross




Lindbergh - Spirit of St. Louis


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Old 3rd May 2023, 06:46
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Unfortunately and tragically, these guys did die. Hence this report and thread on this forum. May they R.I.P.
If just one person reads and takes on board my ramblings, my work has been worthwhile.
Flame me if you wish as I don't give a damn.
Fly safe.


Originally Posted by megan
Not exactly a vote of confidence then. Given that your aircraft is side slipping (ball not centred) it will be in a spiral, the degree being subject to type aircraft and in flight conditions (power, speed, flap).

421, you're on the money. If caught on top yell for help and ask for the nearest VMC, one of our chaps rescued a guy caught on top, had him fly loose formation and lead him down through the soup. Instrument flying is not all that difficult and is a skill easily picked up, I'm talking just the basic keeping the aircraft upright, home computer sim program would soon have anyone up to speed. Remember Lindbergh flew the Atlantic on basic panel, as did Kingsford Smith making the first Pacific crossing, and the early airlines.

Trying the proposed let down is foolish in the extreme, you can't be assured as to position or cloud base - the cloud may be sitting on top of elevated terrain, get on the radio.
Are you one of those "Adalide Astronauts"?
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Old 3rd May 2023, 07:20
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Are you one of those "Adalide Astronauts"?
Absolutely no idea what an "Adalide" is, but as the old saying goes, "Opinions are like assholes (sorry Mods): everybody's got one, and everybody thinks theirs smells nicer than everyone else's" As you say,
If just one person reads and takes on board my ramblings, my work has been worthwhile
I wish the same for 421's and my advice. Readers will make their own decisions, and perhaps live or die by them.

A Cessna doing its own thing.


Last edited by megan; 3rd May 2023 at 07:44. Reason: Video
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Old 3rd May 2023, 11:29
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Originally Posted by RichardJones
Good question about the rudder pedals.
If you don't have your feet on the pedals, you wont be tempted to use them. Dont worry about the ball not being in the middle. Let the aircraft settle down and do it's thing. Sure the a/c won't fly straight but it should keep the blue side up. If one exists the cloud on or very near the deck, hopefully the vertical speed and horizontal speed, wont be too high, therefore a good chance of walking away.

Hand is only on the stick or control column, to ensure the airlerons are kept neutral.

Basically let everything go and sit back and enjoy ride.
With this explanation, I am not going to give "advice" other people to follow your suggestions.

Not saying your advice is wrong, but the proof can not be consumed, indigestible ......

Originally Posted by 421dog
Wow. You guys are already dead.
at the expense of an hour or two of primary instrument instruction.
Yep, very early in my PPL training, I did quite some IMC training on my own initiative, which paid off later on. When, at the near end of the PPL course, with an instructor sitting next to me, we got into IMC at 1100 ft AGL (stormy weather, while making a shallow turn, with clouds unexpectedly moving in fassssssst), the spiral dive developed within seconds. The instructor (high time airline pilot) was looking out his side window (at a 60+ degrees left bank, looking for ground contact, he said later on ), and did do nothing else (IE take control and use the AI). It was me who saved the day, we came out of the clouds at 400 ft AGL, wings level, VS 0 ft/s and at the correct heading. Recovered in just a couple of seconds, on the instruments. Once you aim for it, it's easy.

The biggest catch: Because of being only allowed flying VMC, you just don't switch to the instruments when it becomes IMC conditions, you just don't, because it's not allowed, mental issue. Once I did switch to the instruments, the problem got solved right away. Have a little IMC training, and it can be done, it's not that difficult.

This (and other events) taught me, to never trust high-time commercial-flying instructors. They are just out of touch with the low level basics of (IMC and other items) flying in Spam-cans.
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Old 3rd May 2023, 11:57
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Originally Posted by WideScreen
With this explanation, I am not going to give "advice" other people to follow your suggestions.

Not saying your advice is wrong, but the proof can not be consumed, indigestible ......


Yep, very early in my PPL training, I did quite some IMC training on my own initiative, which paid off later on. When, at the near end of the PPL course, with an instructor sitting next to me, we got into IMC at 1100 ft AGL (stormy weather, while making a shallow turn, with clouds unexpectedly moving in fassssssst), the spiral dive developed within seconds. The instructor (high time airline pilot) was looking out his side window (at a 60+ degrees left bank, looking for ground contact, he said later on ), and did do nothing else (IE take control and use the AI). It was me who saved the day, we came out of the clouds at 400 ft AGL, wings level, VS 0 ft/s and at the correct heading. Recovered in just a couple of seconds, on the instruments. Once you aim for it, it's easy.

The biggest catch: Because of being only allowed flying VMC, you just don't switch to the instruments when it becomes IMC conditions, you just don't, because it's not allowed, mental issue. Once I did switch to the instruments, the problem got solved right away. Have a little IMC training, and it can be done, it's not that difficult.

This (and other events) taught me, to never trust high-time commercial-flying instructors. They are just out of touch with the low level basics of (IMC and other items) flying in Spam-cans.
Good post as it has constructive input. This is what it is all about.

I agree with you about the part time thing. I have know people go back to Ag flying. Some came to grief. Like operating many types in a fleet. There is a maximum. Light aircraft 4 IIRC. Complex 2? It should be only one. I have forgotten. To swap types on a regular basis you really need to be on top of your game. Same with part time instructing. We loose touch with the real world.
One needs to be current.

Last edited by RichardJones; 3rd May 2023 at 13:46.
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Old 3rd May 2023, 13:48
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When we engage in pursuits that will result in dire consequences absent our appropriate response to adverse circumstances, we are obligated to mitigate the risk via appropriate pursuit of skills, decision making, and risk assessment prior to embarking on the endeavour.

Itís nobody elseís problem if a Pilot that canít control his airplane flies into a situation above his skill set. If thereís a cloud in the sky, avoid it, or know damn well how to fly through it.

If that makes you sad, buy a Vespa, and trade in your five-bar epaulettes (and your bugsmasher) for a spiffy Armani windbreaker. When you get scared because itís foggy, you can put the kickstand down and find a latte somewhere nearby with a bubbly heart on top.
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Old 3rd May 2023, 14:09
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Itís nobody elseís problem if a Pilot that canít control his airplane flies into a situation above his skill set. If thereís a cloud in the sky, avoid it, or know damn well how to fly through it.
I cannot disagree with that. However, as accident statistics and reports indicate, there are exceptions.

You will all be relieved that I am retiring from contributions to this thread. If I knew I was about to start another war I would not have posted my original suggestion.

If mankind was meant to fly, God would have given us wings, at birth. He didn't, well certainly not in my case. Appoligies for my dyslectic spell checker. Spelling police have been my memisus for years.
Safe flying all.
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Old 3rd May 2023, 14:32
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God did intend us to fly. He made us able to do so and endowed us with some basic risk management skillsÖ
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Old 3rd May 2023, 19:22
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It isn't just the pilot's problem if, in VMC above cloud, he contacts the resource he's been taught to contact in an emergency, and enters cloud because they told him to do so.
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Old 3rd May 2023, 20:17
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I see in this story a certain fatal submissive mindset along the lines "the controller is a full time professional, he will know how to get me out of this mess". Fitting the picture was this pilot not contacting ATC for weather updates earlier nor using his transponder. Afraid of ATC, or too respectful, or simply not used talking to... I know the type, AAIB report is severely lacking human factors in this regard.
I absolutely must question whether instructions from ATC are safe for me respecting my skills and my circumstances. If in doubt, ask or declare "unable". Get used to talking to ATC, take advantage of ATC, use the information from ATC!
The most important lesson here is that the controller is also a mere mortal, subject to errors, and instructions of air traffic control must be scrutinized exactly as my own plans. If ATC instructs you to fly into clouds while neither IFR equipped nor current, say "unable" and don't do it!
PS: tried in VMC today (SEP high wing) feet off rudders stick centered (with some thermal activity). Took 30 s to start spiralling, cut it after 60 s with bank reaching 60į. This recipe is not working due to roll instability in our spam cans.

Last edited by spornrad; 3rd May 2023 at 21:11.
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Old 3rd May 2023, 20:41
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Not having flown to any significant extent outside of North America, but a fair amount there, the beautiful thing about flying is that they let you do it right up until you Fvck up.

We all realize that this is a risk-rich endeavor.
We do stuff that normal mortals donít, and accept the attendant dangers.

Pee in somebody elseís cherreios and youíll get your ticket pulled.
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Old 4th May 2023, 05:12
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Excellent advice spornrad, you are the PIC, ask for what you need ie I don't have any IMC experience in this case.
This recipe is not working due to roll instability in our spam cans
The instability is there so you can have maneuverability. Hands off in a BAE 31, starts at 0:52

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Old 4th May 2023, 11:24
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Originally Posted by 421dog
When we engage in pursuits that will result in dire consequences absent our appropriate response to adverse circumstances, we are obligated to mitigate the risk via appropriate pursuit of skills, decision making, and risk assessment prior to embarking on the endeavour.

Itís nobody elseís problem if a Pilot that canít control his airplane flies into a situation above his skill set. If thereís a cloud in the sky, avoid it, or know damn well how to fly through it.

If that makes you sad, buy a Vespa, and trade in your five-bar epaulettes (and your bugsmasher) for a spiffy Armani windbreaker. When you get scared because itís foggy, you can put the kickstand down and find a latte somewhere nearby with a bubbly heart on top.
Or so to say, the fire brigade should not be scrambled, when your house is on fire ? Just your problem.....
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Old 4th May 2023, 11:33
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Originally Posted by spornrad
....
PS: tried in VMC today (SEP high wing) feet off rudders stick centered (with some thermal activity). Took 30 s to start spiralling, cut it after 60 s with bank reaching 60į. This recipe is not working due to roll instability in our spam cans.
While not perfect, this does not sound bad at all.

In a minute, one easily descends through a 1000 ft cloud layer, with the spiral dive development at the end.

Maybe, next time, you can give it some variations:
- What happens, when minimal wings-level corrections are made, just based on counteracting the airplane turning shown on the gyro compass ?
- What happens, when with full flaps ?
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Old 4th May 2023, 13:36
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Originally Posted by WideScreen
While not perfect, this does not sound bad at all.

In a minute, one easily descends through a 1000 ft cloud layer, with the spiral dive development at the end.

Maybe, next time, you can give it some variations:
- What happens, when minimal wings-level corrections are made, just based on counteracting the airplane turning shown on the gyro compass ?
- What happens, when with full flaps ?
Appoligies to all, as I am temporally coming out of retirement on this.

You have the right idea, right attitude and could be the right stuff.
There is a lot of left hand spirals, in examples given.Reduce the power some what. As an increased power, the more the twisted slipstream from the propeller S/E.will strike the port vertical surfaces. Not to mention engine torque. Hence when power is applied right rudder is needed to maintain balance and vice versa. On all American built piston engines.
Yes in Vmc, experiment with flap etc. The ldea of a little power is to try and keep the engine warm. Full idle power power would even be better. Unfortunately you may not have much power when you need it again. Clearing the engine at say every 1000 feet will upset the equilibrium. Don't attempt it.
Remember you are going to pick up a lot of carb ice in cloud. It's a trade off.
The reason for reduced speed is this. If the cloud your desperate situate dictates you descend through, is on the deck, you would hopefully be under control when ground contact was made. The slower the better. This gives person in this desperate situation some chance of survival. That is reason I threw in the EFATO scenario, on a previous post. Land ahead!!
The two who perished in the accident to which this thread is based, had no chance, in the situation into which confronted them.

Additional input below.

https://www.pprune.org/flying-instructors-examiners/351973-question-ab-initio-instructors.html?highlight=Question+Instructors

Last edited by RichardJones; 4th May 2023 at 15:21.
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Old 4th May 2023, 15:06
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I'm a bit baffled by all this discussion. PPL requires 5 hours of instrument flying, does it not? So how can a PPL be unable to use his instruments?
None fitted someone explained above. Not so. Every pic I've just looked at of CAP10 cockpits shows either an AI or a Turn Co-ordinator. Anyone should be capable of maintaining safe flight with either of those. Admittedy recovery from unexpected attitudes might represent a problem.
Spinning is s daft suggestion with cloudbase in some areas 500ft or less. It would be hazardous as hell with a guaranteed 1500ft for most pilots. Recovery even by a competent aerobatic pilot would be highly questionable just popping out of cloud at 500 by the time atitude awareness had been achieved.
Do CAP10s not carry parachutes? I thought it was pretty standard for aerobatic types? That's a get-out-of-jail card in extreme circumstances.
Finally, I'd submit the simplest and most foolproof way to get out of their pickle, being over Devon, would be to initiate a straight descent on a southerly course(maybe with radar assistance) with modest r.o.d until you pop out of cloud under full control over the oggin, safe and sound. It then requires you to turn N and find a usable airport or at a pinch the beach, but it won't kill you unless cloud's on the deck but you'd not get down safely anywhere in that scenario.
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Old 4th May 2023, 15:50
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Admittedly, I'm way out of touch with current, legislation regarding instrument requirements in light a/c., not too mention everything else, these days.
I my day when I had a PPL at 17, the aircraft I got my hands on, had a turn and bank, if you were lucky.
never did anything under the hood until CPL training. Consequently, for most, we stayed away from cloud. Too scared to go near it. That kept most of us out of trouble. In fact, the aerial work aircraft I began operating, in the outfit I was with, (at 21) only had the ball. The thinking was to discourage cloud flying, and costs of course. You see, when you are young, you are invincible. Or that's what we thought. Never too young to start learning though.

Last edited by RichardJones; 4th May 2023 at 16:03.
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Old 4th May 2023, 19:59
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Originally Posted by meleagertoo
I'm a bit baffled by all this discussion. PPL requires 5 hours of instrument flying, does it not? So how can a PPL be unable to use his instruments?
None fitted someone explained above. Not so. Every pic I've just looked at of CAP10 cockpits shows either an AI or a Turn Co-ordinator. Anyone should be capable of maintaining safe flight with either of those. Admittedy recovery from unexpected attitudes might represent a problem.
Spinning is s daft suggestion with cloudbase in some areas 500ft or less. It would be hazardous as hell with a guaranteed 1500ft for most pilots. Recovery even by a competent aerobatic pilot would be highly questionable just popping out of cloud at 500 by the time atitude awareness had been achieved.
Do CAP10s not carry parachutes? I thought it was pretty standard for aerobatic types? That's a get-out-of-jail card in extreme circumstances.
Finally, I'd submit the simplest and most foolproof way to get out of their pickle, being over Devon, would be to initiate a straight descent on a southerly course(maybe with radar assistance) with modest r.o.d until you pop out of cloud under full control over the oggin, safe and sound. It then requires you to turn N and find a usable airport or at a pinch the beach, but it won't kill you unless cloud's on the deck but you'd not get down safely anywhere in that scenario.
The report states inter alia:

"Both Birmingham Airport and Gloucestershire Airport were within 90-minutes flying time of the aircraftís position during the emergency. Both reported 1-2 octas of cloud and good visibility; conditions that were suitable for flying a visual approach."

In this case there was no need for risky ad hoc procedures had the aircraft been assisted to reach an airfield where the weather was good.

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