Costa Rica gear up landing

[Jhieminga]

Just saw this video on the BBC site. A little late on the round out....?
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-la...erica-50726800

All occupants unharmed.

Edit: Only just noticed that it is an old incident. Don't know why the site thought it useful to push it to the top of the list again. Apologies, if this one has been covered in an earlier thread, this one can be closed.

[treadigraph]

Not sure there was any round out! Ouch!

[Pilot DAR]

Yeah, that one's been seen here before. I remember commenting what a poor landing it was then, and it's still a poor landing, gear or not!

[what next]

Originally Posted by treadigraph

Not sure there was any round out!

That's an old problem of the Seneca: When you get slow, which I suppose this pilot did on purpose in that situation, you don't have enough elevator to hold the nose up.

[treadigraph]

I saw a Belgian Seneca have a whoopsy on landing at Blackbushe many years ago - I don't recall the sequence exactly but there was quite a sound of oil canning (or maybe props eating concrete!); it stopped on the runway with both props stationary and was pushed clear by the occupants. Presumably a heavy landing, possibly a bit of wheelbarrowing. Not close enough to see if there was any prop damage.

[Pilot DAR]

That's an old problem of the Seneca: When you get slow, which I suppose this pilot did on purpose in that situation, you don't have enough elevator to hold the nose up.

I have experienced that with every type I have stalled!

[what next]

Originally Posted by Pilot DAR

I have experienced that with every type I have stalled!

But with a Seneca it can happen 10kt before the stall, even with the centre of gravity well within limits. There is a Seneca based at our airport that has been rebuilt three times after hard landings.

[Jhieminga]

I have never explored the envelope of the Seneca to those extremes, so that is a useful bit of information. It also reinforces the old 'know thy aeroplane' commandment.

[Pilot DAR]

But with a Seneca it can happen 10kt before the stall, even with the centre of gravity well within limits.

That becomes a certification consideration. Though I have not flown a Seneca, I have flight tested a number of other "stabiliator" Pipers. Yes, stabiliators will stall themselves at high (up pitch command) stabiliator AoA's. This was a factor in the early Cessna Cardinals (also with a stabilator) being required by AD to have slots added to reduce this effect. That being said, the stall may be defined as an uncontrolled pitching down, or control held to the pitch up stop for three seconds. I was doing that testing in a Cessna Caravan last December, slowly apply full nose up elevator, then hold it there for at least three seconds, and see what the plane does.

So an attentive pilot must maintain flying speed. This pilot did not do that, he did not maintain enough speed to flare the plane to arrest the rate of descent. Sure, shut the engines down to save severe propstrikes, I would too, but then make sure that you fly the plane into the flare, to preserve speed with which to flare!

[Big Pistons Forever]

The accident aircraft is a Seneca 1. There is a reason that the Seneca 2 and subsequent Seneca models had a redesigned Elevator control system. I can say from personal experience that a Seneca 1, at the forward C of G was difficult to pitch up to a proper landing attitude in the flare, even with full up elevator.

[treadigraph]

Just did some research about the landing incident I saw at Blackbushe - three different Belgian Senecas visited that week, two were Seneca 1s. Think there were three or four adults aboard...