Fatal Crash in Ireland 6 October 2019
Thread Starter
Fatal Crash in Ireland 6 October 2019
https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/201...in-co-wexford/
Reported as a Condor, just after take-off, with wreckage spread over wide area.
Reported as a Condor, just after take-off, with wreckage spread over wide area.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/1007/10...crash-wexford/
Names released and eye witness evidence of a spinning, diving aircraft with debris falling suggests an in air breakup of some sort, collision?
Very experienced crew, RIP.
Names released and eye witness evidence of a spinning, diving aircraft with debris falling suggests an in air breakup of some sort, collision?
Very experienced crew, RIP.
Thread Starter
The farmer's statement about hearing a bang, and looking up to see the aircraft in what looks like a spin, makes me wonder if there was a major engine failure, or propeller breaking, and vibration caused airframe damage.
Originally Posted by Maoraigh1
The farmer's statement about hearing a bang, and looking up to see the aircraft in what looks like a spin, makes me wonder if there was a major engine failure, or propeller breaking, and vibration caused airframe damage.
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Originally Posted by martinebrangan
RIP to both pilots, and condolences to their families and friends. I am wondering if the aircraft was fitted with a ballistic parachute. There has been at least one accident where it was attributed to such exploding unexpectedly and with devastating consequence. The AAIU will explore all possibilities and this is one they will investigate.
Aircraft reported to be a Rollason Condor, probably dating from mid 1960s, so no it wouldn't have BRS
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John
Nice quiet bloke who steered clear of the club politics that nearly destroyed the DGC.
Tug pilot, vintage glider (vugefogel?), spent hours chatting with him on Kerry safaris and one of the first to help rig. Iirc he had a share in the condor as talked about what a nice taildragger it is.
Tug pilot, vintage glider (vugefogel?), spent hours chatting with him on Kerry safaris and one of the first to help rig. Iirc he had a share in the condor as talked about what a nice taildragger it is.
Link here to preliminary report: Preliminary Report: Accident Rollason D.62B Condor, (EI-BDX) Duncormick, Co. Wexford 6 October 2019 Report 2019-011 | AAIU.ie
Extract: “The Investigation contacted a number of witnesses and obtained details of their observations of the aircraft, from a variety of vantage points, and at various stages of the accident flight. One witness observed the aircraft some minutes prior to the accident and noted that the aircraft executed a number of consecutive roll manoeuvres. In addition, several witnesses reported hearing waxing and waning engine sounds, as the aircraft manoeuvred. Other witnesses reported that immediately prior to the accident the aircraft executed three loop manoeuvres. During the descent from the apogee of the third loop, two loud noises (variously described as bangs or cracking sounds) were heard, parts were seen to separate from the aircraft, and the aircraft began spiralling downwards.”
Extract: “The Investigation contacted a number of witnesses and obtained details of their observations of the aircraft, from a variety of vantage points, and at various stages of the accident flight. One witness observed the aircraft some minutes prior to the accident and noted that the aircraft executed a number of consecutive roll manoeuvres. In addition, several witnesses reported hearing waxing and waning engine sounds, as the aircraft manoeuvred. Other witnesses reported that immediately prior to the accident the aircraft executed three loop manoeuvres. During the descent from the apogee of the third loop, two loud noises (variously described as bangs or cracking sounds) were heard, parts were seen to separate from the aircraft, and the aircraft began spiralling downwards.”
Another pertinent extract from the report:
The approved Flight Manual for the aircraft states:
“Operation is limited to normal flying manoeuvres and no aerobatic manoeuvres except spins are permitted. [...] The maximum positive acceleration i.e. load factors which the structure has been designed to withstand without permanent deformation are 4.4g for the pull-out from a spin (1400 lb) and for all normal flight (1475 lb) 3.0g and 2.0g with the wing flaps extended (if fitted). Intentional manoeuvres shall be confined to those with load factors below these values.”
“Operation is limited to normal flying manoeuvres and no aerobatic manoeuvres except spins are permitted. [...] The maximum positive acceleration i.e. load factors which the structure has been designed to withstand without permanent deformation are 4.4g for the pull-out from a spin (1400 lb) and for all normal flight (1475 lb) 3.0g and 2.0g with the wing flaps extended (if fitted). Intentional manoeuvres shall be confined to those with load factors below these values.”
Thread Starter
Earlier posts about the occupants didn't suggest the sort of people who would do this.
Could the manoeuvres have been the result of a control problem?
Could the manoeuvres have been the result of a control problem?
Originally Posted by DownWest
Bit depressing, doing aeros in a 54 yr old wooden a/c that is not approved for them. Sounds like the main spar failed.
Now if the tail fails first then the wing will usually fail under the negative load.
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Originally Posted by Maoraigh1
Earlier posts about the occupants didn't suggest the sort of people who would do this.
Could the manoeuvres have been the result of a control problem?
Could the manoeuvres have been the result of a control problem?
Moderator
A loop in a lesser powered plane can get to three G, and if mis-managed 3.5 - 4G. I sure hope that a pilot embarking upon aerobatics had a G meter installed. Without a G meter, you really are pulling your luck!
If you wish to play Russian Roulette don't be surprised by the outcome, a bit hard to miss when the statement is a placard on the instrument panel.
http://www.lightaircraftassociation....E%20CONDOR.pdf
Not when they've carried out three loops.
The aircraft must be operated in compliance with the following operating limitations, which shall be displayed in the cockpit by means of placards or instrument markings:
2.1 Aerobatic Limitations
Aerobatic manoeuvres are prohibited. Intentional spinning is permitted not exceeding three turns.
2.1 Aerobatic Limitations
Aerobatic manoeuvres are prohibited. Intentional spinning is permitted not exceeding three turns.
Could the manoeuvres have been the result of a control problem?
I have about 50 hours on type, and have instructed on a Condor. They are an absolute joy to fly - with handling damn nigh perfect, if rather lacking in power.
It is easy to see how a misguided pilot who understands their handling abilities rather more than the aeroplane structure could convince themselves that aerobatics in a Condor are a good idea. The control authority is most definitely there and with enough height and skill I've no doubt you could fly an impressive display.
Of course this is still a very very bad idea, for the really obvious reasons that it's a half century old wooden aeroplane that was never stressed for aerobatics. Personally I never took ours beyond a sensibly pedestrian 2.5g and 60° of bank.
G
It is easy to see how a misguided pilot who understands their handling abilities rather more than the aeroplane structure could convince themselves that aerobatics in a Condor are a good idea. The control authority is most definitely there and with enough height and skill I've no doubt you could fly an impressive display.
Of course this is still a very very bad idea, for the really obvious reasons that it's a half century old wooden aeroplane that was never stressed for aerobatics. Personally I never took ours beyond a sensibly pedestrian 2.5g and 60° of bank.
G
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Originally Posted by India Four Two
Another pertinent extract from the report:
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Basically held onto a ply wood bulkhead by coach screws
I do remember in about 1971 there was a mod done to strengthen the firewall as a result of an engine coming loose in a 130hp condor used for glider towing.
Very sad loss of an often underrated aeroplane.
RIP to those involved
Thread Starter
I still find it difficult to believe this was deliberate aerobatics, considering the experience and ages of the pilots. The newspaper description of circling is also odd. I assume autopsies have checked for CO and fuel vapour.
It is reminiscent of a KLM Super Constellation crash where heater fumes were suggested.
It is reminiscent of a KLM Super Constellation crash where heater fumes were suggested.
I still find it difficult to believe this was deliberate aerobatics, considering the experience and ages of the pilots
After the aircraft returned from its earlier flight it was scheduled to do another flight – the accident flight. Prior to the accident flight, the Instructor was heard to remark to the Pilot “I suppose I better take the loose bits out of it”. The pilot who had flown the aircraft earlier asked the Pilot about his intended flight, and he responded “I’m going up to do spins”. Later, in the same conversation, there was some general discussion about aerobatics, including a query about the maximum “g” that would be experienced during a barrel roll, which the Instructor opined he would expect not to be more than 2g..........
The Investigation contacted a number of witnesses and obtained details of their observations of the aircraft, from a variety of vantage points, and at various stages of the accident flight. One witness observed the aircraft some minutes prior to the accident and noted that the aircraft executed a number of consecutive roll manoeuvres. In addition, several witnesses reported hearing waxing and waning engine sounds, as the aircraft manoeuvred. Other witnesses reported that immediately prior to the accident the aircraft executed three loop manoeuvres. During the descent from the apogee of the third loop, two loud noises (variously described as bangs or cracking sounds) were heard, parts were seen to separate from the aircraft, and the aircraft began spiralling downwards.
The Investigation contacted a number of witnesses and obtained details of their observations of the aircraft, from a variety of vantage points, and at various stages of the accident flight. One witness observed the aircraft some minutes prior to the accident and noted that the aircraft executed a number of consecutive roll manoeuvres. In addition, several witnesses reported hearing waxing and waning engine sounds, as the aircraft manoeuvred. Other witnesses reported that immediately prior to the accident the aircraft executed three loop manoeuvres. During the descent from the apogee of the third loop, two loud noises (variously described as bangs or cracking sounds) were heard, parts were seen to separate from the aircraft, and the aircraft began spiralling downwards.
Originally Posted by Maoraigh1
I still find it difficult to believe this was deliberate aerobatics, considering the experience and ages of the pilots. The newspaper description of circling is also odd. I assume autopsies have checked for CO and fuel vapour.
You don’t fly 3 loops when you’re suffering from CO poisoning or fuel vapor.
This was deliberate aerobatics by (I assume) a group authorized instructor who had likely done this more then once.
