4th Aug 2018 Junkers JU52 crashed in Switzerland
Pegase Driver
It is not only that, this paper waver is only good for acts of God or technical/mechanical failures, if it is pilot / maintenance error or negligence , it will not help you much either , and this in any Country I would say. But I am not a lawyer .
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These golden oldies should not be permitted to operate as passenger flights without it being entirely clear that they are not part of the same industry that delivered worldwide ZERO jet airliner fatalities in 2017.
The Touristy or Traveling public should not be misled.
There are times to extend the envelope and there are times to say NO!
The Touristy or Traveling public should not be misled.
There are times to extend the envelope and there are times to say NO!
Who made the pax on this flight say YES ? Were they forced to fly on this aircraft ? Of course not and you know that. So, whats your agenda ? More regulation, less freedom ? Forebid anything fun ?
Go ahead, you´re in line with the EU and almost all administrations in the world. Not sure I like this mindset. (actually I hate it, but...)
I have piloted trips in a D.H. Dove under German air law and we had to stop that after JAR OPS came in force. IMO there should be a statement possible to exclude the same amount of safety from such trips, as it is crystal clear that it could not be achieved. Even if the JU would have been build from scratch in 2017 - that most likely would have not changed anything in this case. IF we would be talking about a structural disintegration of some sort it`d maybe be different, but for the time being we aren´t. Or would you ban - e.g. - 737s when a crew mishandled them and killed passengers ? Of course you wouldn´t.
Last edited by His dudeness; 3rd Dec 2018 at 08:20. Reason: Spelling
Totally agree, your Dudeness! The Swiss Regulator (FOCA/BAZL) is already threating with more control on oldtimers - instead of better controls of course. I am affected by this actionism because I own and fly a swiss registered oldtimer. I have been twice on a flight of Ju-Air and nobody boarding was misled into believing to fly with a modern aircraft. No oldtimer is dangerous because of its age if well maintained and piloted with its limits in mind and taking care of its idiosyncrasys. This aircraft did not crash because of age. And, as we are sadly aware, even brand new aircraft can be involved in accidents.
Dudeness - they also have t think of people on the ground who may not have signed up to having an 80 year old 'plane flying over them and depositing large amounts of metal over the vicinity
Personally I'm with Terry Pratchett on this in general - you have freedom of choice but that includes the requirement to take the consequences of your actions. If I go to an Airshow I accept the risk I may be killed by an aircraft crashing - but that's a long way from, for example, the people driving on the main road and killed by the Hunter crash in the UK a couple of years back...............
Personally I'm with Terry Pratchett on this in general - you have freedom of choice but that includes the requirement to take the consequences of your actions. If I go to an Airshow I accept the risk I may be killed by an aircraft crashing - but that's a long way from, for example, the people driving on the main road and killed by the Hunter crash in the UK a couple of years back...............
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Dudeness - they also have t think of people on the ground who may not have signed up to having an 80 year old 'plane flying over them and depositing large amounts of metal over the vicinity
Personally I'm with Terry Pratchett on this in general - you have freedom of choice but that includes the requirement to take the consequences of your actions. If I go to an Airshow I accept the risk I may be killed by an aircraft crashing - but that's a long way from, for example, the people driving on the main road and killed by the Hunter crash in the UK a couple of years back...............
Personally I'm with Terry Pratchett on this in general - you have freedom of choice but that includes the requirement to take the consequences of your actions. If I go to an Airshow I accept the risk I may be killed by an aircraft crashing - but that's a long way from, for example, the people driving on the main road and killed by the Hunter crash in the UK a couple of years back...............
Updates on HB-HOT JU-52 crash
First it seems that the draft on the final report is being circulated and that the SUST (Schweizerische Sicherheitsuntersuchungsstelle) is confident that they had sufficient data to perform their analysis.
Second there is some new development in which the Swiss government has requested that the Dutch NLR investigates the BAZL (Das Bundesamt für Zivilluftfahrt) in the context of this investigation (not exactly clear, does anyone have more info ?).
Second there is some new development in which the Swiss government has requested that the Dutch NLR investigates the BAZL (Das Bundesamt für Zivilluftfahrt) in the context of this investigation (not exactly clear, does anyone have more info ?).
Last edited by atakacs; 10th Aug 2020 at 08:13. Reason: typo in title
They called in the Dutch before. It's about possible issues with BAZL oversight over Ju Air. They want a neutral body to look at things.
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There are some loose connections here with the crash of G-APFE over Mt.Fuji in March 1966. A passenger's cine camera was found in the wreckage that was running just before the side gust caught the aircraft. There were 2 frames of the film missing immediately before the camera hit the cabin floor which were later assesed to gauge the subsequent lateral G forces that removed the vertical stabiliser. From this, the subsequent aircraft breakup was fairly well established - complimented of course with the very sad images of the aircraft falling to the ground. Quite possibly the video images, if available, will be potentially of far better quality that the old cine super 8 film.
The actual crash might be more about hot weather high mountain flying and maneuvering.
But the post-crash in-depth wreckage analysis is said to have revealed unexpected fatigue and non-standard repairs to word it polite. This will be the part the Dutch will have a look at.
But the post-crash in-depth wreckage analysis is said to have revealed unexpected fatigue and non-standard repairs to word it polite. This will be the part the Dutch will have a look at.
The actual crash might be more about hot weather high mountain flying and maneuvering.
But the post-crash in-depth wreckage analysis is said to have revealed unexpected fatigue and non-standard repairs to word it polite. This will be the part the Dutch will have a look at.
But the post-crash in-depth wreckage analysis is said to have revealed unexpected fatigue and non-standard repairs to word it polite. This will be the part the Dutch will have a look at.
But the post-crash in-depth wreckage analysis is said to have revealed unexpected fatigue and non-standard repairs to word it polite. This will be the part the Dutch will have a look at.
Well that was made clear in the preliminary report published in 2018. If the BAZL were derelict in their supervision I would expect an investigation to be initiated earlier...
Accident Report JU-52 HB-HOT is released
The Accident report is finally out in both english and german language.
https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV.../HB-HOT_EN.pdf
https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV.../HB-HOT_EN.pdf
Last edited by clearedtocross; 28th Jan 2021 at 09:22.
Pretty daming if you ask me. No real suprise (ie. the "big picture" was already known) but the whole chain, from pilot, "arline" to supervsion authrority was criminally negligent. Even in Swiss law there will be field day for the lawyers...
If anyone else is having problems with broken links in that documentation then here, as far as I can see, are the correct links in four languages EN, DE, FR, IT where available:
Quoted from https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV.../HB-HOT_EN.pdf :
"Publications (EN) on the investigation of the accident involving the Junkers Ju 52 HB-HOT air- craft on 4 August 2018
The following links can be used to view or download the STSB’s publications on the safety investigation of the accident involving the Junkers Ju 52 HB-HOT aircraft on 4 August 2018. Not all publications are available in English (EN). If a publication is not available in English, reference is made to a version in German (DE).
..."
Media release:
EN: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV..._Release_E.pdf
DE: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...tteilung_D.pdf
FR: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...e_presse_F.pdf
IT: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...o_stampa_I.pdf
Main part of the final report (EN, DE, FR, IT)
EN: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...B_HB-HOT_E.pdf
DE: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...B_HB-HOT_D.pdf
FR: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...B_HB-HOT_F.pdf
IT: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...B_HB-HOT_I.pdf
Glossary (EN, DE, FR, IT)
EN: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV..._Glossar_E.pdf
DE: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV..._Glossar_D.pdf
FR: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV..._Glossar_F.pdf
IT: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV..._Glossar_I.pdf
Annex A1.1 (EN)
https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...OT_A1-01_E.pdf
Annex A1.5 (EN)
https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...OT_A1-05_E.pdf
Annex A1.6 (EN)
https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...OT_A1-06_E.pdf
Annex A1.7 (EN)
https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...OT_A1-07_E.pdf
Annex A1.12 (EN)
https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...OT_A1-12_E.pdf
Annex A1.16 (EN)
https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...OT_A1-16_E.pdf
Annex A1.17 (EN)
https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...OT_A1-17_E.pdf
Annex A1.18 (EN)
https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...OT_A1-18_E.pdf
Annex A1.19 (EN)
https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...OT_A1-19_E.pdf
Download a copy of the final report including all annexes:
ZIP file of the final report (EN) including all annexes (EN) (93 MB)
https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...Version__E.zip
Explanatory video:
MP4 file (EN, DE, FR, IT) (840 MB)
EN: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...FINAL%20EN.mp4
DE: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...FINAL%20DE.mp4
FR: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...FINAL%20FR.mp4
IT: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...FINAL%20IT.mp4
Watch the video on Youtube (EN)
EN:
DE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKnb...ature=youtu.be
FR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_Hs...ature=youtu.be
IT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv-r...ature=youtu.be
Illustrations for prevention awareness:
ZIP file containing illustrations from the final report (EN) and the annexes (EN) (300 MB)
EN: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...EN/Mappe_E.zip
DE: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...DE/Mappe_D.zip
FR: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...FR/Mappe_F.zip
IT: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...IT/Mappe_I.zip
Earlier publications:
Status report as of 3 August 2020 (EN)
EN: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV..._StatB_E_2.pdf
DE: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV..._StatB_D_2.pdf
FR: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV..._StatB_F_2.pdf
IT: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV..._StatB_I_2.pdf
Status report as of 2 August 2019 (EN)
EN: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...OT_StatB_E.pdf
DE: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...OT_StatB_D.pdf
FR: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...OT_StatB_F.pdf
IT: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...OT_StatB_I.pdf
Interim report from 20 November 2018 (DE)
https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...B-HOT_ZB_D.pdf
Preliminary report from 15 August 2018 (DE)
https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...B-HOT_VB_D.pdf
Quoted from https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV.../HB-HOT_EN.pdf :
"Publications (EN) on the investigation of the accident involving the Junkers Ju 52 HB-HOT air- craft on 4 August 2018
The following links can be used to view or download the STSB’s publications on the safety investigation of the accident involving the Junkers Ju 52 HB-HOT aircraft on 4 August 2018. Not all publications are available in English (EN). If a publication is not available in English, reference is made to a version in German (DE).
..."
Media release:
EN: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV..._Release_E.pdf
DE: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...tteilung_D.pdf
FR: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...e_presse_F.pdf
IT: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...o_stampa_I.pdf
Main part of the final report (EN, DE, FR, IT)
EN: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...B_HB-HOT_E.pdf
DE: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...B_HB-HOT_D.pdf
FR: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...B_HB-HOT_F.pdf
IT: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...B_HB-HOT_I.pdf
Glossary (EN, DE, FR, IT)
EN: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV..._Glossar_E.pdf
DE: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV..._Glossar_D.pdf
FR: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV..._Glossar_F.pdf
IT: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV..._Glossar_I.pdf
Annex A1.1 (EN)
https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...OT_A1-01_E.pdf
Annex A1.5 (EN)
https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...OT_A1-05_E.pdf
Annex A1.6 (EN)
https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...OT_A1-06_E.pdf
Annex A1.7 (EN)
https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...OT_A1-07_E.pdf
Annex A1.12 (EN)
https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...OT_A1-12_E.pdf
Annex A1.16 (EN)
https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...OT_A1-16_E.pdf
Annex A1.17 (EN)
https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...OT_A1-17_E.pdf
Annex A1.18 (EN)
https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...OT_A1-18_E.pdf
Annex A1.19 (EN)
https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...OT_A1-19_E.pdf
Download a copy of the final report including all annexes:
ZIP file of the final report (EN) including all annexes (EN) (93 MB)
https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...Version__E.zip
Explanatory video:
MP4 file (EN, DE, FR, IT) (840 MB)
EN: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...FINAL%20EN.mp4
DE: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...FINAL%20DE.mp4
FR: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...FINAL%20FR.mp4
IT: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...FINAL%20IT.mp4
Watch the video on Youtube (EN)
EN:
FR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_Hs...ature=youtu.be
IT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv-r...ature=youtu.be
Illustrations for prevention awareness:
ZIP file containing illustrations from the final report (EN) and the annexes (EN) (300 MB)
EN: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...EN/Mappe_E.zip
DE: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...DE/Mappe_D.zip
FR: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...FR/Mappe_F.zip
IT: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...IT/Mappe_I.zip
Earlier publications:
Status report as of 3 August 2020 (EN)
EN: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV..._StatB_E_2.pdf
DE: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV..._StatB_D_2.pdf
FR: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV..._StatB_F_2.pdf
IT: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV..._StatB_I_2.pdf
Status report as of 2 August 2019 (EN)
EN: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...OT_StatB_E.pdf
DE: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...OT_StatB_D.pdf
FR: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...OT_StatB_F.pdf
IT: https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...OT_StatB_I.pdf
Interim report from 20 November 2018 (DE)
https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...B-HOT_ZB_D.pdf
Preliminary report from 15 August 2018 (DE)
https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...B-HOT_VB_D.pdf
Absolutely no surprise as was the swiss mid air, crossair’s two losses and a host of other dangerous or quasi legal practices in the last 40 years.
Problem being the influence of the Swiss military throughout all parts of aviation in the country.
But not unique to CH.
Problem being the influence of the Swiss military throughout all parts of aviation in the country.
But not unique to CH.
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Accident report of Swiss Ju-52 out
https://www.sust.admin.ch/en/documen...-4-august-2018
They blame it mostly on the pilots for taking unnecessary risks such as doing a low speed flyby through a narrow valley that is prone to turbulence.
They blame it mostly on the pilots for taking unnecessary risks such as doing a low speed flyby through a narrow valley that is prone to turbulence.
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I just can't see how these guys could call themselves professional - I suppose familiarity breeds contempt as the old saying goes. (not commercial but have flown and instructed in gliders in the mountains).