Mid air collission Germany Jan 2018

[John R81]

BERLIN (AP) — German police say a small aircraft has crashed midair with a helicopter northwest of Stuttgart, killing four people.
Police in Karlsruhe told the dpa news agency Tuesday the two aircraft crashed outside of Philippsburg, about 100 kilometers (60 miles) from Stuttgart.


Article here


From discussions on other chat boards, the helicopter was a HEMS EC135 on a training flight with two pilots from the DRF-Training centre at EDSB; the instructor was named as Jochen H., the head of the EMS helicopter unit in Weiden (full name here: http://www.otv.de/mediathek/video/gr...ttungspiloten/). The aeroplane was also a training flight, with an ATPL student and an instructor (former airline pilot) routing from Basel to Speyer; names not released at this time.


Weather was fairly good: METAR EDFM 231120Z 20006KT 170V230 9999 OVC048 08/06 Q1027=


The helicopter was at 800ft, and it looks like the aeroplane descended into the helicopter from behind; clear visibility and well clear of cloud (NOTE: that may or not be the case once the accident investigation reports).


Regardless, my question (not being a fixed wing pilot) is this: Do fixed wing pilots routinely descend into airspace they cannot see & have not cleared (the descent ahead is hidden by the nose / engine cowl), or are they taught to make clearing turns throughout the descent to avoid running into someone else? If not, why not?

[tmmorris]

We are taught to, but that doesn’t mean we always do. There was a superficially similar accident near Waddesdon Manor recently.

Midair Collision Near Waddesdon

[Pilot DAR]

It is difficult to defend flying ahead into a place which you cannot assure is clear of traffic. That said, most fixed wing aircraft I have flown, even twins, have an appallingly poor forward low range of vision for the pilot. If a pilot chose to do clearing turns to assure in front below was clear before a descent, they would have to be very large heading change turns to be effective. In cruising flight, this would result in considerable excursion from the intended course, and indeed introduce even more opportunity for conflict with aircraft "maneuvering" where they would be expected to be following a course. It's certainly an imperfect situation, 'always has been. Three times while established on final approach, and having broadcast my intentions, I've had an aircraft appear high and in front of me, descending into my path, as they did not see, nor apparently hear me. Once took a pretty aggressive dive to get away, and I was not all that high to begin with.

Helicopters certainly have a major visibility advantage over most types of fixed wing aircraft by design. The helicopter design criteria gives very specific and clearly defined angular dimensions for the required angle of view, accompanied by a drawing, in the Advisory Circular for certification. The fixed wing equivalent AC criteria is very brief, and subjective to the evaluator.

[FAR CU]

USUAL plane I fly these days - C172A - when in uncontrolled airspace with possibility of unknown conflicting aircraft about, (which may as well be all the time) , usual practice is to sit as high as possible in the seat, and to porpoise a little, especially on descent approaching destination. Raise the nose a little, lower the nose a little..

Greatest concern is someone faster, below, heading in the same direction, about to overtake, possibly thumb in bum, mind in neutral.

Many glider pilots are canny enough these days to fit FLARM.And of course there are other proximity warning devices in common use today.

[Steve6443]

Originally Posted by John R81

The helicopter was at 800ft, and it looks like the aeroplane descended into the helicopter from behind; clear visibility and well clear of cloud (NOTE: that may or not be the case once the accident investigation reports).


Regardless, my question (not being a fixed wing pilot) is this: Do fixed wing pilots routinely descend into airspace they cannot see & have not cleared (the descent ahead is hidden by the nose / engine cowl), or are they taught to make clearing turns throughout the descent to avoid running into someone else? If not, why not?

Looking at the location, both aircraft were in the circuit. Both were talking to the Flugleiter. Both aircraft were aware of each other, had been warned of each other. The last communication from the fixed wing aircraft was 'do not have the helicopter in sight'.

You can say what you want but if the helicopter was lower in the circuit and the Piper was descending to circuit altitude, then spotting it against a background of ground clutter is a nearly impossible job, especially with the engine and wings blocking views forward and down. In my eyes, this is another situation which proves that 'see and avoid' needs to be replaced with electronic conspicuity - after all, 4 pairs of eyeballs Mk I were looking but none spotted the aircraft.....

[Few Cloudy]

Very sad

I have just found out that one pilot in the Piper was a club instructor of mine when I restarted with flying some years back, although no names are officially released yet.

Very experienced guy, interested friendly and good instructor - was airline captain in Switzerland and an enthusiastic private pilot too.

RIP