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Hawker Hunter down at Shoreham

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Hawker Hunter down at Shoreham

Old 27th Aug 2015, 05:10
  #401 (permalink)  
RJM
 
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the issue is not whether victims who haven't assumed a risk to which they were involuntarily exposed don't sometimes get hurt or killed. they do.

rather the issue is whether events such as flying displays or other spectacles which carry the risk of causing large numbers of casualties when (not if) something goes wrong will/should face tougher restrictions to further protect those who aren't participants or spectators.

as a practical matter, i would guess that commercial air shows might face far higher, perhaps prohibitive, insurance premiums in future which has nothing to do with government oversight but rather the market telling punters how much they need to pay to for the risk they impose on others
I suspect lawyers interpreting the law of negligence will determine what measures are taken to reduce the risk and cost of liability for loss resulting from events at air shows.
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Old 27th Aug 2015, 07:13
  #402 (permalink)  
 
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Look at CAP 403 if you need to know details regarding overflight of spectators, it says...

Pilots should plan their flying sequence such that they can always regain the display line without infringing the minimum lateral separation distance from the crowd line. Effects of any on-crowd velocity vectors and on-crowd wind component must be taken into account.

So pilots can fly towards the crowd (and over it in some cases if they have specific written permission from the CAA GA Unit).
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Old 27th Aug 2015, 08:54
  #403 (permalink)  
 
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Flying over the crowd is permitted by the waiver I quoted earlier, but I would hold that this applies to a paying crowd and not an entire townscape
Very few venues where crowd rear arrivals (CRA) are approved and flown that don't involve the overflight of a built-up area beforehand. This is all considered as part of the approval to fly a CRA at any specific venue. Suitable 'escape' options have to be available until the formation is then 'committed' to continue over the crowd at the event. The options for any single-engine aircraft in the formation are key to this approval.

Look at somewhere like Bournmouth and you have a 'deep' built-up area prior to reaching the main crowd then display line. Perhaps a Hawk has the speed (energy) to fly clear following an engine failure but a Hurricane couldn't.
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Old 27th Aug 2015, 09:15
  #404 (permalink)  
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Henry, how would you propose a 360 be performed, for instance? At some point during every lateral maneuver you have to be pointing at the crowd, albeit briefly.
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Old 27th Aug 2015, 09:16
  #405 (permalink)  

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Look at somewhere like Bournmouth and you have a 'deep' built-up area prior to reaching the main crowd then display line. Perhaps a Hawk has the speed (energy) to fly clear following an engine failure but a Hurricane couldn't
I was at the Bournemouth show and thought that the number of boats just outside the box are getting larger with each year. I also spent some time on the top of Alum Chine during the Red Arrows display on Saturday and I estimate that the single aircraft was only 200ft above the cliff top heading north over the town.
I'm relieved to understand that there would be sufficient energy to clear the town if there was a bird strike.
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Old 27th Aug 2015, 09:25
  #406 (permalink)  
 
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I don't know where some get their information from but lets make this crystal clear. At NO point did the Hunter fly at the crowd or over it, this is simply wrong! I was there and it flew straight down the display axis and then straight up into a vertical climb and then rolled 90 degrees into a quarter clover to the north of the airfield. This in complete accordance with his published display routine. It did not run in from the North as the BBC are still showing on their graphics, ran in from the sea down the display line and well away from the crowd! Why can't people get their FACTS right so much utter rubbish has been spouted on this tragic accident it winds me up no end.
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Old 27th Aug 2015, 09:26
  #407 (permalink)  
 
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I think a few people are making things up here.

Yes, you are allowed to fly directly at the crowd.
Watch any red arrows display, any F16, any Typhoon. They will all at some point head towards crowd centre.

If you were to see the size of the area that any jet display covers in plan view, you would realise that it is utterly impossible to not overfly houses and roads in any display over the UK.

Just as a point of interest, you might be interested to know that displaying over the water is more dangerous for the pilots. You might not care, but it can be very tricky for the pilot to judge depending on sea state.
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Old 27th Aug 2015, 10:33
  #408 (permalink)  
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However if there is any truth that they declined to participate in a Shoreham display for the implied safety reasons then this may well have serious implications for all concerned with the Shoreham event.
The Red Arrows have refused to comment on speculation why they would not perform there.

On another forum, someone said they'd been banned for frightening sheep. This may well also be inaccurate.

I'm no expert, but their routines do tend to consist of rather large-scale manoeuvres compared to others, and the airspace volume available at Shoreham is limited by parts of the London TMA nearby and overhead, and the higher ground of the South Downs just to the north.

And indeed it has been said in the past by someone on behalf of the airshow that they can't perform there due to the proximity of Lancing and Worthing and airspace.

The fact that they won't fly low over these towns while changing formation doesn't make it dangerous for other aircraft flying singly to do routines that remain much closer to the airfield.
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Old 27th Aug 2015, 11:18
  #409 (permalink)  
 
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Seafurysmith:
...At NO point did the Hunter fly at the crowd or over it, this is simply wrong! I was there and it flew straight down the display axis and then straight up into a vertical climb and then rolled 90 degrees into a quarter clover to the north of the airfield. This in complete accordance with his published display routine. It did not run in from the North as the BBC are still showing on their graphics, ran in from the sea down the display line and well away from the crowd!
While I agree there is no question of it flying towards the crowds, with respect it did in fact run in from the north (as clearly shown in the Dan Tube video). I am extremely familiar with the area and topography (from mountain biking over it for the last 15 years) and put up a Google street view link (post 275) which is a well known viewing spot on Mill Hill and likely where the video was taken from (also where the media are getting their long shots from). The main issue with the graphic is it appears to shows the manoeuvre displaced to the north somewhat (likely it was only intended as a rough guide anyway).

There are enough landmarks visible in the DT video that I imagine the AAIB experts will have little difficulty determining all the relevant parameters from it (esp. in combination with the other footage).
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Old 27th Aug 2015, 11:58
  #410 (permalink)  
 
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Just watched the Red Arrows starburst over my house from 300 feet or so. Then turn and line up for landing at Norwich. Wonderful!
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Old 27th Aug 2015, 12:27
  #411 (permalink)  
 
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Henry

You have seen the red arrows low level over central London, yes?

Sometimes in close formation with Concorde etc?
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Old 27th Aug 2015, 12:34
  #412 (permalink)  
 
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Accident?

Stuckgear,

Utter rubbish. They died because of an accident.

Are you assuming that there was no 'blame' in this incident?

IMHO, accident is over used.

Until the final report no one can know.
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Old 27th Aug 2015, 13:46
  #413 (permalink)  
 
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We went regularly to Greenham Common, Fairford, Farnborough, Duxford, Cosford, Lakenheath, Old Warden and many, many more. Wonderful airshows held over many years. They were huge, with vast numbers of people, traffic chaos, but hours and hours of pleasure seeing all manner if aircraft in the air and on the ground. Luckily we never saw a crash, ever.

Yes, there will always be danger and there must be controls to protect the public, but Shoreham resulted in an additional level of horror due to the death and injury of people not directly involved in or with the airshow, and the graphic pictures which were taken, but it would be a tragedy if the pleasures of air shows are to be denied to the general public. I hope that the AAIB will be able to produce its report as soon as possible. In the meantime I don't go to airshows any more, but not because of fear. I dislike the traffic chaos getting to and from, the enormous crowds, seeing the same old aircraft in diminishing numbers, and the feeling that it was all much more pleasurable in the old days.
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Old 27th Aug 2015, 15:20
  #414 (permalink)  
 
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In the interests of accuracy: In the 1968 Breguet Atlantique crash at Farnborough, the aircraft's crew were killed as was an RAE employee going about his normal business on the ground.

I guess he doesn't count as a spectator.
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Old 27th Aug 2015, 15:30
  #415 (permalink)  
 
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And the 1958 Vulcan prototype crash at Syerston killed 3 on the ground, but they were all working in or around the runway caravan and were not spectators either.
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Old 27th Aug 2015, 16:09
  #416 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aox View Post
The Red Arrows have refused to comment on speculation why they would not perform there.

I'm no expert, but their routines do tend to consist of rather large-scale manoeuvres compared to others
Possibly to do with the fact that manoeuvres with nine aircraft take longer and use more airspace than a singleton ... ?
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Old 27th Aug 2015, 16:20
  #417 (permalink)  
 
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Tourist #420

Henry

You have seen the red arrows low level over central London, yes?

Sometimes in close formation with Concorde etc?
Red Arrows and everyone else do flypasts over central London, not displays, and certainly not aerobatics. Very, very much lower risk. AFAIK they do those flypasts at about 1300 feet, which hardly qualifies as low level?

Somewhere in the risk assessment of those Red Arrows flypasts must be consideration of flying single-engine over London (not normally allowed). Perhaps the reliability of the engine in straight-and-level flight is a factor, similar to the risk assessment of ETOPS.
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Old 27th Aug 2015, 16:27
  #418 (permalink)  
 
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Yes I think that you will find that his run in to start the loop was from the north! This is clearly shown on various videos. FACT
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Old 27th Aug 2015, 16:27
  #419 (permalink)  
 
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Stuckgear,

Utter rubbish. They died because of an accident.

Are you assuming that there was no 'blame' in this incident?

IMHO, accident is over used.

Until the final report no one can know.
No I am neither assuming there is no blame, nor am i assuming that the situation remains blameable.

I am assuming nothing. I am not out sharpening a pitchfork apportioning blame to anyone or anything.

An accident occured. It was and remains tragic for those directly involved, indirectly involved and those who witnessed it.

Like you, i would rather wait for the final report rather weigh in half truths, misinformation and half baked, third hand incorrect conjecture.

Last edited by stuckgear; 29th Aug 2015 at 21:41.
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Old 27th Aug 2015, 19:23
  #420 (permalink)  
 
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R/T?

Is anyone aware of any Transmission from AH during the manoeuvre - e.g Ooops! or referring to any failure / anomaly - or alternatively can confirm the NO such transmission was made.?
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