Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Non-Airline Forums > Accidents and Close Calls
Reload this Page >

Safety around propellers

Accidents and Close Calls Discussion on accidents, close calls, and other unplanned aviation events, so we can learn from them, and be better pilots ourselves.

Safety around propellers

Old 4th Dec 2017, 08:54
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 1,548
As Chuck Glider says, "Generally solo hand propping is done from behind the prop with controls within reach"

At Brown's Seaplane establishment, Winter Haven Florida, the J3 Cub prop was swung FROM BEHIND by the instructor who was standing on the float, holding onto the struts.
On a strong wind day with ripples or waves,this could have been even more interesting....

They sent me solo - if I bought my own seaplane to fly solo in. That didn't happen.
mary meagher is offline  
Old 4th Dec 2017, 09:16
  #82 (permalink)  

Avoid imitations
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 11,955
Originally Posted by tmmorris View Post
Engine is stopped for cadet changeover AND the cadet is helped into the aircraft by ground crew.
Good idea. I was once carrying out a "running change" in a Bulldog. I was in the process of getting back in the right side and was standing on the wing. The student, having finished solo circuits, hadn't set the parking brake properly and the aircraft began to roll forwards. The student suddenly saw the aircraft movement and without warning jammed on the toe brakes. I was thrown towards the spinning prop but just managed to grab the screen frame with my fingertips... Very close.
ShyTorque is offline  
Old 4th Dec 2017, 11:44
  #83 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: CYYC (Calgary)
Posts: 4,583
They sent me solo - if I bought my own seaplane to fly solo in.
Mary,

You should have done your rating in Canada. Solo flying is a required part of the syllabus.
India Four Two is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2017, 17:35
  #84 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,158
No Christmas Propstrikes Please

Batteries and starters are challenged in the cold.

Fuel does not vaporise that well in the cold.

Spark plugs ice up.

FBO staff is scarce; so no preheat or battery boost available.

It all ends up with hand propping.

Best to arrange ahead of time for preheat equipment to be available.
RatherBeFlying is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2018, 07:14
  #85 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Moray,Scotland,U.K.
Posts: 1,303
A hot engine is always on contact.

NTSB report:
"On July 26, 2018, about 1650 eastern daylight time, the private pilot of a Cessna 182P, N1311S, was fatally injured when he was struck by the propeller during a preflight inspection of the airplane at the Cleveland Regional Jetport (RZR), Cleveland, Tennessee. "
"The pilot's wife reported to Federal Aviation Administration personnel that they had flown to RZR earlier that day, and her husband performed a normal shutdown of the engine utilizing the mixture control. They performed errands then returned to the airport. She reported to law enforcement that she was outside the airplane behind the passenger door facing her seat, and her husband was performing a preflight inspection of the airplane. She heard the "propeller move" which she described as unusual and heard the engine like it was starting or trying to start. She looked up and noticed her husband fall to the ground. She thought the propeller stopped at that time, and went inside the fixed-base-operator to summon help. She also indicated that the ignition key was in her husband's pocket at the time of the accident. The airplane's ignition switch and key were retained for operational testing."

Last edited by Maoraigh1; 18th Aug 2018 at 07:16. Reason: Change title
Maoraigh1 is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2018, 08:02
  #86 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Below transition level
Posts: 262
A live mag? Very important to actually check that your ignition key/mag switches actually grounds both the mags in the off position.
Fostex is offline  
Old 19th Aug 2018, 02:55
  #87 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Hammersmith
Posts: 26
Originally Posted by Fostex View Post
A live mag? Very important to actually check that your ignition key/mag switches actually grounds both the mags in the off position.
Forgive me if this is a stupid question but how exactly can I check that the ignition key/mag switches have actually grounded both mags in the off position?

I recently acquired a share in a light aircraft and one of the requirements where the aircraft is based is that the prop is left in the horizontal position (for the purposes of the ground handlers moving the aircraft - who refuse to touch the aircraft other than connecting the tow to the nosewheel). This therefore means there's a 50/50 chance that I have to move the prop round 90 degrees..... which I absolutely hate doing! - now I've always been taught to make sure that when I shut a piston aircraft down that I turn the key to the OFF position and make sure the keys are out of the ignition.... but the last two posts on here suggest this might not be sufficient? maybe pulling a circuit breaker would ensure there's no mishaps? (type is a Beagle Pup 150)
Richard_Richard is offline  
Old 19th Aug 2018, 04:01
  #88 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Sydney
Posts: 263
Originally Posted by Richard_Richard View Post
Forgive me if this is a stupid question but how exactly can I check that the ignition key/mag switches have actually grounded both mags in the off position?

I recently acquired a share in a light aircraft and one of the requirements where the aircraft is based is that the prop is left in the horizontal position (for the purposes of the ground handlers moving the aircraft - who refuse to touch the aircraft other than connecting the tow to the nosewheel). This therefore means there's a 50/50 chance that I have to move the prop round 90 degrees..... which I absolutely hate doing! - now I've always been taught to make sure that when I shut a piston aircraft down that I turn the key to the OFF position and make sure the keys are out of the ignition.... but the last two posts on here suggest this might not be sufficient? maybe pulling a circuit breaker would ensure there's no mishaps? (type is a Beagle Pup 150)
magnetos are turned "off" by shorting them. This means if a wire or the switch breaks, the engine will keep running, what you want when flying. On the ground though if a wire comes loose or a switch breaks etc, you may have a live mag, even if the switch is off. There is no circuit breaker or anything else to disable the mags. They are designed so that failures in any switch, wiring etc are unlikely to stop the engine.

It is worth learning how to do a mag check prior to engine shutdown (and get into the habit of doing it each shutdown). If that ever indicates you may have a live prop, get someone to inspect the mags and avoid handling the prop (even put a sign on the prop indicating it is live).

Always treat props as live, always move the prop only if you are in a position to pull your hands away and never leave any part of your body in the arc of the prop when rotating it.
jonkster is offline  
Old 19th Aug 2018, 19:29
  #89 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Moray,Scotland,U.K.
Posts: 1,303
At idle. Right off - mag drop - back to both. Left off - mag drop - back to both.
Both off for an instant, back on fast covers last possibility.
Could vapour mixture ignite to give a kick, without a plug spark, on a hot engine, at compression? This engine had been shut down for long enough that glowing carbon should not be possible. Outside temp 31°C, and in the sun, higher under the cowling.
Maoraigh1 is offline  
Old 20th Aug 2018, 08:37
  #90 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: CYYC (Calgary)
Posts: 4,583
I don't think this has been posted,

India Four Two is offline  
Old 9th Sep 2018, 13:49
  #91 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: France
Posts: 867
He wasn't (I hope) trying to start that engine. Pulling it through to check compressions, more likely.
Personally I wouldn't hand swing anything with more than two blades.
I've had a 180 Lycoming with a four blade prop start with keys in my pocket, first flight of the day, just out of the hangar, temp -10 Deg C. No prime, mixture lean. Throttle at idle. Chocks in front of the wheels
That was because it was normally a cow to start on a cold day and I wanted to unstick the oil before starting it. Ran for long enough to walk round the wing. That was a broken mag lead.
Piper.Classique is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2018, 12:45
  #92 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 10
I had a similar experience as a staff instructor/tug pilot at Lasham.

We were pulling all the aircraft out of the hanger at the start of the day. The chief tug pilot was just getting in a Rallye 180 that need to be moved but he realised he had omitted to do a compression check. To save time I offered to turn the prop. We did the normal safety calls and responses. On the second swing the engine picked up at fast idle. I think he was more shocked than I as he immediately beckoned me around to inspect the engine controls whilst keeping his hands in the air. The tumbler switch controlling the mags was off with the key removed. The switch had failed to earth one or both magnetos.

Perhaps it helped that I had done my PPL on Tiger Moths trained by ex-RAF instructors who had drilled into me the danger of swinging any prop.

Last edited by paulross; 10th Sep 2018 at 14:27.
paulross is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2018, 05:19
  #93 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: In the air
Posts: 205
Propeller hazard

I just stumbled upon the report of a horrific accident involving a student pilot who walked into the prop of a C152. The flight school in question was routinely disembarking one student and embarking the next with the engine running.

That seems insane, and not just because of the prop danger. But the report did not explicitly condemn the practice. Although failure to shut down the engine was listed as a contributory cause (!), the recommendations talked vaguely about the importance of awareness of the dangers of spinning props among students and passengers.

Is it ever acceptable practice to allow people to enter/exit a small aircraft with the engine running? Why would this ever be permitted ? Whatever permitted means in this context.

Last edited by double_barrel; 31st Dec 2018 at 05:54.
double_barrel is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2018, 07:37
  #94 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oxford
Posts: 2,016
I’d never do it, but do people think the risks are different for high vs low wing?

And how how are the students supposed to learn how to start and shut down the engine?
tmmorris is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2018, 08:36
  #95 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,117
Elf & Safety paranoia.

As an instructor I would be quite happy to leave a PA28 or C152 with the engine running, doing the same thing with a DR400 would require a bit more thinking about but dong this with a DA40 simply would not happen. However I have been working around propellers for years and have a respect for the dangers and always approach or leave an aircraft from the rear.

The problems start when people who do not appreciate the risks of propellers are unsupervised near live aircraft and people new to flying are not trained properly , after all how often do you hear a student call “clear prop,” and instantly start the engine allowing no time for a person to step away from the aircraft ?

Old gits like me consider propellor awareness as part of airmanship but no doubt the new and politically correct title is now T.E.M.
A and C is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2018, 10:05
  #96 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Uxbridge
Posts: 529
Our FOB expressly forbids the practice. The problem is not how good and safe one crew is at doing it, but the easily led who see it being done and try to copy....................
MrAverage is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2018, 11:00
  #97 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: The World
Posts: 1,205
Originally Posted by double_barrel View Post
I just stumbled upon the report of a horrific accident involving a student pilot who walked into the prop of a C152. The flight school in question was routinely disembarking one student and embarking the next with the engine running.

That seems insane, and not just because of the prop danger. But the report did not explicitly condemn the practice. Although failure to shut down the engine was listed as a contributory cause (!), the recommendations talked vaguely about the importance of awareness of the dangers of spinning props among students and passengers.

Is it ever acceptable practice to allow people to enter/exit a small aircraft with the engine running? Why would this ever be permitted ? Whatever permitted means in this context.
You have a link to the report? I know of quite some places where they change students with engine running.
On one side, for scenic flights and unfamiliar pax loading/unloading I would follow the never-ever-do-that.
On the other side, a student on training must have some kind of common sense not to walk in front of a running prop.
I know, I AM an old fart from the days when common sense was more common.
ChickenHouse is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2018, 14:59
  #98 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: In the air
Posts: 205
Originally Posted by ChickenHouse View Post
You have a link to the report? I know of quite some places where they change students with engine running.
http://www.transport.go.ke/downloads...ril%202016.pdf
double_barrel is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2018, 16:57
  #99 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Below transition level
Posts: 262
Swapping out students with a running engine, while safe if performed correctly (and depending on aircraft type), is not really the best practice when teaching students. It needs to be emphasised to anyone new to flying that being a pilot is not just about handling the aircraft in flight but rather all aspects of safety around the aircraft when airside. That includes the safe startup and shutdown of the engine as well as the use of mags, throttle, mixture and pitch to manage the prop. By simply turning up to a running aircraft and jumping in the student is missing a lot of the learning experience. Not a good idea in my opinion.
Fostex is offline  
Old 1st Jan 2019, 11:58
  #100 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: london
Age: 69
Posts: 43
This report is a about a AA5 Passenger that was smuggling drugs and left the aircraft by going forward over the wing,
https://assets.publishing.service.go...pdf_501006.pdf

His attempt at a quick exit with engine running lead to his demise,
ivorPhillips is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.