Adam Air B737-400 fatal crash January 2007
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cost of flying:
so, if we could verify that low cost carriers around the world are less safe than high cost carriers, the passengers would make their choice and take their chance.
but there are crashes involving high cost carriers.
we are coming to a huge changing of the guard in the US in terms of senior pilots and retirement.
I wonder how things will shake out here, let alone in the aviation third world.
so, if we could verify that low cost carriers around the world are less safe than high cost carriers, the passengers would make their choice and take their chance.
but there are crashes involving high cost carriers.
we are coming to a huge changing of the guard in the US in terms of senior pilots and retirement.
I wonder how things will shake out here, let alone in the aviation third world.
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A piece of high altitude enroute chart showing the various locations of interest: http://www.openatc.com/images/adamairmap.png
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Cargo One
Yes, the aircraft would normally have had an ELT, (Automatic Fxed) and maybe also a couple of Survival ELTs on board.
However it is possible that the ELT may not have transmitted for one of several reasons; ELT submerged in water, co-axial connection to external antenna or external antenna broken in crash, location of ELT in certain mountainous terrain.
Yes, the aircraft would normally have had an ELT, (Automatic Fxed) and maybe also a couple of Survival ELTs on board.
However it is possible that the ELT may not have transmitted for one of several reasons; ELT submerged in water, co-axial connection to external antenna or external antenna broken in crash, location of ELT in certain mountainous terrain.
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Willie,
Sure, the ideal is as what you said... but most unfortunately, here, those are just... ideals... in particular regarding Adam Air.
The 17 pilots that were sued had a hell of a time finding legal help. The law here isn't just "law" but more like "law and a few extra baggage". I've been through lawsuits before here mate, and despite having been 100% right, the case was almost lost thanks to the "extra baggage"... the law is never certain here, regardless of what the written law is!
Adam Air in the case of the 17 pilots took them off duty after they raised safety concerns. With flight pay going to about 50% of their salaries, it was only a matter of time before they would tender their resignations... and that's when Adam's revenge attacked back... Because on paper, the pilots were legally bound to stay, and if they left, they were to pay damages. Sounds silly? it happened.
It was said that Adam Air reported some to the police too for having had deliberately flown an unairworthy aircraft despite the management being the ones who made the "force order"... This would cost extra money to the accused... why? because no matter how crazy the accusation is, it'll cost money to get a fair investigation... and a little more money can turn it your way. Guess who has more money?
With high unemployment, and low pay, those who can leave and pay off the bond would do so on the spot.... those who cannot, suffer... A license in Adam is an expendable commodity... One that many have invested a lot in. I feel sorry for those who'd just joined and didn't hear anything about the conditions within Adam, having spent their family's fortunes in getting a pilot's license, they now have a long term working bond, valued at >1x the amount they invested...
It's sad I know... I'm just happy I'm not working there... and happy my close friends managed to find loopholes or blackmailed the company back for a safe exit! For the momeny, I tell my friends not to even touch that company with a bargepole for work or as a customer.
PK-KAR
Sure, the ideal is as what you said... but most unfortunately, here, those are just... ideals... in particular regarding Adam Air.
The 17 pilots that were sued had a hell of a time finding legal help. The law here isn't just "law" but more like "law and a few extra baggage". I've been through lawsuits before here mate, and despite having been 100% right, the case was almost lost thanks to the "extra baggage"... the law is never certain here, regardless of what the written law is!
Adam Air in the case of the 17 pilots took them off duty after they raised safety concerns. With flight pay going to about 50% of their salaries, it was only a matter of time before they would tender their resignations... and that's when Adam's revenge attacked back... Because on paper, the pilots were legally bound to stay, and if they left, they were to pay damages. Sounds silly? it happened.
It was said that Adam Air reported some to the police too for having had deliberately flown an unairworthy aircraft despite the management being the ones who made the "force order"... This would cost extra money to the accused... why? because no matter how crazy the accusation is, it'll cost money to get a fair investigation... and a little more money can turn it your way. Guess who has more money?
With high unemployment, and low pay, those who can leave and pay off the bond would do so on the spot.... those who cannot, suffer... A license in Adam is an expendable commodity... One that many have invested a lot in. I feel sorry for those who'd just joined and didn't hear anything about the conditions within Adam, having spent their family's fortunes in getting a pilot's license, they now have a long term working bond, valued at >1x the amount they invested...
It's sad I know... I'm just happy I'm not working there... and happy my close friends managed to find loopholes or blackmailed the company back for a safe exit! For the momeny, I tell my friends not to even touch that company with a bargepole for work or as a customer.
PK-KAR
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anyone who hasn't heard of this type of pilot pushing (though this seems extreme) simply hasn't been around aviation very much.
what pilots do to keep a job is almost shocking...and I wish pilots could know that before their first training flight.
even in the usa, I have seen something called a 'training contract' which is almost like indentured servitude (thankfully found illegal later on, almost against the constitution).
I believe the poster who has indicated such. and to the guy quoting regulations...that is like saying it is illegal to drive faster than 65mph in the us...it is illegal in most places, but it happens
what pilots do to keep a job is almost shocking...and I wish pilots could know that before their first training flight.
even in the usa, I have seen something called a 'training contract' which is almost like indentured servitude (thankfully found illegal later on, almost against the constitution).
I believe the poster who has indicated such. and to the guy quoting regulations...that is like saying it is illegal to drive faster than 65mph in the us...it is illegal in most places, but it happens
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I've been flying aeroplanes since 1976.
I've flown for a small number of airlines, in a variety of operations, environments, cultures and countries. I've flown several airliners, both scheduled and IT, including the B737-200 and NG series aircraft. I've also had the good fortune to never had to work for an operation that used intimidation as motivation.
What struck a chord with me in this tragic event is the suggestion (and I believe it entirely possible) that the crew MAY have been intimidated into accepting an aeroplane that might not have been airworthy.
Having also invested many of my 'airline' years to safety and safety program management, I find it absolutely embarrassing that in this day and age regardless of 'contracts' for type ratings, training bonds, in whatever form, that those who take on the responsibility of flying a commercial transport with fare paying passengers haven't got the fortitude to refuse the flight.
I know that sounds naieve to many posters but it's up to us to put our responsibility as PIC ahead of our employment. Why?
Because, if you allow yourself to get bullied/intimidated by some 'management' type who doesn't fly and certainly may never have sat at the pointy end of a B737, at Flight Level 3-5-0, on a dark and dirty night, and who may not even know the rules by which YOU operate the aircraft, then tell him/her to get stuffed (if you like) or reject the despatch due to the applicable regulation. It's that simple.
I certainly understand companies like this may have politicians or judges in their pockets but that's life.
YOU'RE the one signing the Techlog, not the despatcher, operations manager, or CEO.
I can't imagine the CEO of this or any other LCC wanting to see this as an outcome to one of their scheduled flights. BAD advertising, not to mention the scolding to follow in the press during the investigation that follows.
Could it be that some managers don't wish to give the boss the bad news???
They might have to answer his questions about why the aircraft had faulty IRSs, or why they had no operating WX radars?
Are you working for a company that operates like you're suggesting???
One that operates by shoddy maintenance and by intimidating crew???
Then my best suggestion would be to get out while you can.
If that means you take a 30,000 (whatever currency) debt with you.....
at least you are alive.
If this crew found themselves operating under this kind of duress, with a suspect airframe, during a monsoon in coffin corner then I say again, pilot error.
"It's better to be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground."
Keep it real,
Willie
I've flown for a small number of airlines, in a variety of operations, environments, cultures and countries. I've flown several airliners, both scheduled and IT, including the B737-200 and NG series aircraft. I've also had the good fortune to never had to work for an operation that used intimidation as motivation.
What struck a chord with me in this tragic event is the suggestion (and I believe it entirely possible) that the crew MAY have been intimidated into accepting an aeroplane that might not have been airworthy.
Having also invested many of my 'airline' years to safety and safety program management, I find it absolutely embarrassing that in this day and age regardless of 'contracts' for type ratings, training bonds, in whatever form, that those who take on the responsibility of flying a commercial transport with fare paying passengers haven't got the fortitude to refuse the flight.
I know that sounds naieve to many posters but it's up to us to put our responsibility as PIC ahead of our employment. Why?
Because, if you allow yourself to get bullied/intimidated by some 'management' type who doesn't fly and certainly may never have sat at the pointy end of a B737, at Flight Level 3-5-0, on a dark and dirty night, and who may not even know the rules by which YOU operate the aircraft, then tell him/her to get stuffed (if you like) or reject the despatch due to the applicable regulation. It's that simple.
I certainly understand companies like this may have politicians or judges in their pockets but that's life.
YOU'RE the one signing the Techlog, not the despatcher, operations manager, or CEO.
I can't imagine the CEO of this or any other LCC wanting to see this as an outcome to one of their scheduled flights. BAD advertising, not to mention the scolding to follow in the press during the investigation that follows.
Could it be that some managers don't wish to give the boss the bad news???
They might have to answer his questions about why the aircraft had faulty IRSs, or why they had no operating WX radars?
Are you working for a company that operates like you're suggesting???
One that operates by shoddy maintenance and by intimidating crew???
Then my best suggestion would be to get out while you can.
If that means you take a 30,000 (whatever currency) debt with you.....
at least you are alive.
If this crew found themselves operating under this kind of duress, with a suspect airframe, during a monsoon in coffin corner then I say again, pilot error.
"It's better to be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground."
Keep it real,
Willie
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Willie,
Those who can and wanted to leave have left... that's the good news.
For me, after hearing all the stuff that has gone in in there, I still wonder why some would join them (and only to hear them complain about regretting that decision).
Being alive is surely better than dead, but having a huge debt to some people is worse than risking one's lives and licenses but with no debt at all. The bonds are high, the pay is too dirt low (especially in Adam Air).
And make the rest of your life paying for it, and sometimes, even your children... Or... you might loose your license in the meantime, then, go bankrupt and live on the streets...
Here, licensed dispatchers do sign their lives on the loadsheets.
Well, this is one case where he doesn't understand that this is the outcome. The finance director is loyal only to 1 thing, profits...
Bad advertising? Yes, but people still fly on them (and complain but still fly them again). Bad press? Oh yes, Adam gets heaps of them, but then again, people still fly them. Investigation? OMG! What investigation? The investigation on -KKE's 400NM nav error was nothing short of a tragic comedy... yet people still fly them.
The only things for certain are, it'll just be a matter of time before things break/crumble one after the other... or that change will eventually happen for the better (well, seeing the maintenance bill climbing could eventually be a factor). The problem is, how long would that take and how many lives are lost before then...
It's real all right...
PK-KAR
Those who can and wanted to leave have left... that's the good news.
For me, after hearing all the stuff that has gone in in there, I still wonder why some would join them (and only to hear them complain about regretting that decision).
Being alive is surely better than dead, but having a huge debt to some people is worse than risking one's lives and licenses but with no debt at all. The bonds are high, the pay is too dirt low (especially in Adam Air).
If that means you take a 30,000 (whatever currency) debt with you.....
at least you are alive.
at least you are alive.
YOU'RE the one signing the Techlog, not the despatcher, operations manager, or CEO.
I can't imagine the CEO of this or any other LCC wanting to see this as an outcome to one of their scheduled flights. BAD advertising, not to mention the scolding to follow in the press during the investigation that follows.
Bad advertising? Yes, but people still fly on them (and complain but still fly them again). Bad press? Oh yes, Adam gets heaps of them, but then again, people still fly them. Investigation? OMG! What investigation? The investigation on -KKE's 400NM nav error was nothing short of a tragic comedy... yet people still fly them.
The only things for certain are, it'll just be a matter of time before things break/crumble one after the other... or that change will eventually happen for the better (well, seeing the maintenance bill climbing could eventually be a factor). The problem is, how long would that take and how many lives are lost before then...
It's real all right...
PK-KAR
Hi there everlearn,
You're completely right. However, unfortunately, this accident happened in Indonesia.
Therefore, some things are better not discussed or investigated, because it is TABOO to do so.
Which, by the way, is an Indonesian word....
You're completely right. However, unfortunately, this accident happened in Indonesia.
Therefore, some things are better not discussed or investigated, because it is TABOO to do so.
Which, by the way, is an Indonesian word....
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I read an article that indicated that 2 different elt signals were being tracked...one on 121.5mhz and the other on 460 mhz.
one part of the article suggests that the plane broke apart in flight, possibly an explosion.
may I theorize the following: perhaps the plane was not well cared for and the continutity of the airframe had a gap in which a lightning strike did not pass through the plane WITHOUT creating a spark gap, perhaps in a fuel vapor area causing an explosion.
as we all know, a plane which is properly allowing for a lightning strike to pass through it will perhaps show a small hole exiting the structure...but a gap which allows this spark to jump, just MIGHT cause an explosion.
we shall see
one part of the article suggests that the plane broke apart in flight, possibly an explosion.
may I theorize the following: perhaps the plane was not well cared for and the continutity of the airframe had a gap in which a lightning strike did not pass through the plane WITHOUT creating a spark gap, perhaps in a fuel vapor area causing an explosion.
as we all know, a plane which is properly allowing for a lightning strike to pass through it will perhaps show a small hole exiting the structure...but a gap which allows this spark to jump, just MIGHT cause an explosion.
we shall see
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:Taboo is not Indonesian at all, it's Polynesian and based on religious grounds, ie Gods are so powerful, it's not even worth talking about, it's TABOO...
To relate Polynesians and Indonesians...
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Willie,
"Having also invested many of my 'airline' years to safety and safety program management, I find it absolutely embarrassing that in this day and age regardless of 'contracts' for type ratings, training bonds, in whatever form, that those who take on the responsibility of flying a commercial transport with fare paying passengers haven't got the fortitude to refuse the flight.
I know that sounds naieve to many posters but it's up to us to put our responsibility as PIC ahead of our employment. Why?
Because, if you allow yourself to get bullied/intimidated by some 'management' type who doesn't fly and certainly may never have sat at the pointy end of a B737, at Flight Level 3-5-0, on a dark and dirty night, and who may not even know the rules by which YOU operate the aircraft, then tell him/her to get stuffed (if you like) or reject the despatch due to the applicable regulation. It's that simple.
I certainly understand companies like this may have politicians or judges in their pockets but that's life.
YOU'RE the one signing the Techlog, not the despatcher, operations manager, or CEO.
I can't imagine the CEO of this or any other LCC wanting to see this as an outcome to one of their scheduled flights. BAD advertising, not to mention the scolding to follow in the press during the investigation that follows.
Could it be that some managers don't wish to give the boss the bad news???
They might have to answer his questions about why the aircraft had faulty IRSs, or why they had no operating WX radars?
Are you working for a company that operates like you're suggesting???
One that operates by shoddy maintenance and by intimidating crew???
Then my best suggestion would be to get out while you can.
If that means you take a 30,000 (whatever currency) debt with you.....
at least you are alive.
If this crew found themselves operating under this kind of duress, with a suspect airframe, during a monsoon in coffin corner then I say again, pilot error."
You are right in the drive of your argument, and you are also right in admitting naivete. I note - by your own admission - that you have never flown with 3rd rate outfits like those in Indonesia. Nor have i, but i do live in a not-so-very-far-away place, and i understand all too well these "types". Especially to quote you in saying "I know that sounds naieve to many posters but it's up to us to put our responsibility as PIC ahead of our employment.", perhaps when you have actually had the experience of doing this yourself would you have the moral authority to say those words. I do know 1 person, in a different (but in some ways similar) circumstance to be told that "career prospects are at stake" & "you will never work in another airline again".... under that kind of duress, when your wife & 3 kids are relying on you to put the bread on the table, make the mortgage payments.... if & when YOU have actually done this yourself, please do let us know....
I myself have had the fortune not to have been placed in that situation; but i stop short of making those kinds of statements.
As i said, you are absolutely right in your facts, but completely wrong in making the assumption that things in Indonesia work the same way they do in Canada....
"Having also invested many of my 'airline' years to safety and safety program management, I find it absolutely embarrassing that in this day and age regardless of 'contracts' for type ratings, training bonds, in whatever form, that those who take on the responsibility of flying a commercial transport with fare paying passengers haven't got the fortitude to refuse the flight.
I know that sounds naieve to many posters but it's up to us to put our responsibility as PIC ahead of our employment. Why?
Because, if you allow yourself to get bullied/intimidated by some 'management' type who doesn't fly and certainly may never have sat at the pointy end of a B737, at Flight Level 3-5-0, on a dark and dirty night, and who may not even know the rules by which YOU operate the aircraft, then tell him/her to get stuffed (if you like) or reject the despatch due to the applicable regulation. It's that simple.
I certainly understand companies like this may have politicians or judges in their pockets but that's life.
YOU'RE the one signing the Techlog, not the despatcher, operations manager, or CEO.
I can't imagine the CEO of this or any other LCC wanting to see this as an outcome to one of their scheduled flights. BAD advertising, not to mention the scolding to follow in the press during the investigation that follows.
Could it be that some managers don't wish to give the boss the bad news???
They might have to answer his questions about why the aircraft had faulty IRSs, or why they had no operating WX radars?
Are you working for a company that operates like you're suggesting???
One that operates by shoddy maintenance and by intimidating crew???
Then my best suggestion would be to get out while you can.
If that means you take a 30,000 (whatever currency) debt with you.....
at least you are alive.
If this crew found themselves operating under this kind of duress, with a suspect airframe, during a monsoon in coffin corner then I say again, pilot error."
You are right in the drive of your argument, and you are also right in admitting naivete. I note - by your own admission - that you have never flown with 3rd rate outfits like those in Indonesia. Nor have i, but i do live in a not-so-very-far-away place, and i understand all too well these "types". Especially to quote you in saying "I know that sounds naieve to many posters but it's up to us to put our responsibility as PIC ahead of our employment.", perhaps when you have actually had the experience of doing this yourself would you have the moral authority to say those words. I do know 1 person, in a different (but in some ways similar) circumstance to be told that "career prospects are at stake" & "you will never work in another airline again".... under that kind of duress, when your wife & 3 kids are relying on you to put the bread on the table, make the mortgage payments.... if & when YOU have actually done this yourself, please do let us know....
I myself have had the fortune not to have been placed in that situation; but i stop short of making those kinds of statements.
As i said, you are absolutely right in your facts, but completely wrong in making the assumption that things in Indonesia work the same way they do in Canada....
One thing that people should realise is that Indonesia - whilst a wonderful place populated with wonderful locals etc blah blah...
...can be a very threatening place where very strange things can happen and being 'right' or 'within the law' will not help. I'm not in the airline industry but my experience in business has shown that if someone wants to make your life difficult - 'they' can make it very, very difficult indeed.
...can be a very threatening place where very strange things can happen and being 'right' or 'within the law' will not help. I'm not in the airline industry but my experience in business has shown that if someone wants to make your life difficult - 'they' can make it very, very difficult indeed.
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Speculation and assumption, this is not a market place here and the fact that there is a deadly crash impose some respect, get the facts and then discuss about them...
Like for the ones that say "I will never do that", you better say nothing unless you have already faced the same situation, you will be surprised...how money is every thing in this world, believe me
Lets wait for some "correct and unbiased" news and facts first!
Like for the ones that say "I will never do that", you better say nothing unless you have already faced the same situation, you will be surprised...how money is every thing in this world, believe me
Lets wait for some "correct and unbiased" news and facts first!
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Is it possible that the wreckage IS where the authorities originally said it was, but that they now want 'finding' it to be delayed for some reason?
The confidence with which the authorities were quoting the eye-witness scene, and the exact co-ordinates, and the 'epirb' signal lat/long lead me to think it may well be exactly where they said it was!
pvm
The confidence with which the authorities were quoting the eye-witness scene, and the exact co-ordinates, and the 'epirb' signal lat/long lead me to think it may well be exactly where they said it was!
pvm
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Is it possible that the wreckage IS where the authorities originally said it was, but that they now want 'finding' it to be delayed for some reason?
The confidence with which the authorities were quoting the eye-witness scene, and the exact co-ordinates, and the 'epirb' signal lat/long lead me to think it may well be exactly where they said it was!
pvm
The confidence with which the authorities were quoting the eye-witness scene, and the exact co-ordinates, and the 'epirb' signal lat/long lead me to think it may well be exactly where they said it was!
pvm
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Aircraft from Singapore on Thursday joined Indonesia's search for a plane that disappeared in bad weather with 102 people aboard four days ago, while navy vessels combed rough seas. First Air Marshal Eddy Suyanto, commander of the air base in Makassar, said a new report had been received that an emergency signal had been picked up south of Manado, the lost plane's
Destination in North Sulawesi province, three days ago.
Until now, military and civilian aircraft have been mainly scouring the jungles and rugged mountains of western Sulawesi, while ships searched the Makassar Strait between the islands of Sulawesi and Borneo.
Destination in North Sulawesi province, three days ago.
Until now, military and civilian aircraft have been mainly scouring the jungles and rugged mountains of western Sulawesi, while ships searched the Makassar Strait between the islands of Sulawesi and Borneo.
A Reuters photographer on one of the military planes said most of the aircraft circled over a rugged mountainous area in the Toraja highlands, a remote region popular with tourists.
The confusion over the plane highlighted the logistical difficulties of dealing with disasters, from quakes and volcanoes to floods and forest fires, in an archipelago of 17,000 islands
The confusion over the plane highlighted the logistical difficulties of dealing with disasters, from quakes and volcanoes to floods and forest fires, in an archipelago of 17,000 islands
President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono has ordered a full investigation into the condition of all commercial planes in Indonesia and what went wrong in the Adam Air case, as well as an evaluation of the nation's transportation system.
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President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono has ordered a full investigation into the condition of all commercial planes in Indonesia and what went wrong in the Adam Air case, as well as an evaluation of the nation's transportation system.
Sounds like boilerplate to me.