Adam Air B737-400 fatal crash January 2007
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Yep, here's the wire...
MAKASSAR, Indonesia, Jan 2 (Reuters) - An Indonesian air
force official said on Tuesday reports that an airliner with
102 people on board had been found on Sulawesi island were
wrong, and that the plane was still missing.
Officials had earlier said that wreckage of the Adam Air
plane had been found after it had crashed into the mountains in
heavy rain. There were reports 12 people had survived the
crash.
"The location has not been found. We apologise that the
news that we conveyed was not true," said First Air Marshal
Eddy Suyanto, commander of Hasanuddin air base in Makassar.
The Adam Air plane lost contact with the ground on Monday
about an hour before it was due to land in Manado in North
Sulawesi, the transport ministry said.
There were 96 passengers and six crew on board the plane. A
copy of the plane's manifest showed three passengers as
non-Indonesians. The United States embassy in Jakarta confirmed
they were Americans.
Suyanto earlier told Radio Elshinta an air force plane had
spotted the wreckage of the Boeing 737-400.
"The plane was found around 20 km (12 miles) from Polewali
(town) in the mountains. The weather is clear," Suyanto had
said.
Air travel in Indonesia, home to 220 million people, has
grown substantially since the liberalisation of the airline
industry after the Asian financial crisis in the late 1990s,
which enabled privately owned budget airlines to operate.
(With additional reporting by Jerry Norton, Telly Nathalia,
Achmad Sukarsono, Mita Valina Liem and Muara Makarim in
JAKARTA)
MAKASSAR, Indonesia, Jan 2 (Reuters) - An Indonesian air
force official said on Tuesday reports that an airliner with
102 people on board had been found on Sulawesi island were
wrong, and that the plane was still missing.
Officials had earlier said that wreckage of the Adam Air
plane had been found after it had crashed into the mountains in
heavy rain. There were reports 12 people had survived the
crash.
"The location has not been found. We apologise that the
news that we conveyed was not true," said First Air Marshal
Eddy Suyanto, commander of Hasanuddin air base in Makassar.
The Adam Air plane lost contact with the ground on Monday
about an hour before it was due to land in Manado in North
Sulawesi, the transport ministry said.
There were 96 passengers and six crew on board the plane. A
copy of the plane's manifest showed three passengers as
non-Indonesians. The United States embassy in Jakarta confirmed
they were Americans.
Suyanto earlier told Radio Elshinta an air force plane had
spotted the wreckage of the Boeing 737-400.
"The plane was found around 20 km (12 miles) from Polewali
(town) in the mountains. The weather is clear," Suyanto had
said.
Air travel in Indonesia, home to 220 million people, has
grown substantially since the liberalisation of the airline
industry after the Asian financial crisis in the late 1990s,
which enabled privately owned budget airlines to operate.
(With additional reporting by Jerry Norton, Telly Nathalia,
Achmad Sukarsono, Mita Valina Liem and Muara Makarim in
JAKARTA)
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This is horrendous. What an appalling thing for the relatives who may have had a tiny spark of hope dashed again. How is it possible to identify something as large as the site is likely to be then decide you were wrong having apparently seen "smouldering wreckage and corpses strewn over 'quite a wide area'"? Why are two different versions of the weather being given? For the sake of all the families involved I hope they find them soon.
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Absolutely terrible news and my thoughts are with those who have lost friends and family.
I just wish I could say that I'm suprised by these kind of events. I am spending the winter based in Indonesia and have been shocked by the casual attitude towards safety. It seems that there is a totally different safety culture in Indonesia - travelling by air, sea or road is a nerve-wracking experience. In just one week I have seen a Lion Air aircraft in a less than serviceable state on the grass in Sulawesi and witnessed an Adam Air coming within feet of an over-run in Sumatra.
Indonesia is not a wealthy country, it is rife with corruption at every level and suffers from some fairly extreme weather conditions. These factors may explain (if not excuse) the high accident rate, but what needs to change above all else is their attitude. Even if they use the very latest aircraft, invest in world-class Air Traffic Control, make every runway 12000ft long with a precision approach accidents will still happen as long as life is considered cheap.
I just wish I could say that I'm suprised by these kind of events. I am spending the winter based in Indonesia and have been shocked by the casual attitude towards safety. It seems that there is a totally different safety culture in Indonesia - travelling by air, sea or road is a nerve-wracking experience. In just one week I have seen a Lion Air aircraft in a less than serviceable state on the grass in Sulawesi and witnessed an Adam Air coming within feet of an over-run in Sumatra.
Indonesia is not a wealthy country, it is rife with corruption at every level and suffers from some fairly extreme weather conditions. These factors may explain (if not excuse) the high accident rate, but what needs to change above all else is their attitude. Even if they use the very latest aircraft, invest in world-class Air Traffic Control, make every runway 12000ft long with a precision approach accidents will still happen as long as life is considered cheap.
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No, SID, I haven't and the more I hear and read the less I am inclined to visit there which is probably a bit sad as there are, no doubt, many interesting places to see. It goes without saying that I don't believe all the Indonesian people to be so inept and callous as those dealing with the situation appear to be. A very, very sad situation.
Stercus Accidit
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Capt.Kaos, I'm quite sure nobody here blames you for that bit of misinformation. I saw it first on my ISP's website. They, presumably, got it from a reputable source. It is the misinformation dispensed by those most closely involved which is deplorable, NOT the bringing in good faith of potentially good news.
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A Mystery - but not really
It never made sense to me that they'd have crashed into a peak on Sulawesi if they were overflying for Manado at Flight Level 350.
My guess is that they EITHER took a large drink of heavy precipitation and lost both engines (just like’s happened a number of times before with the 732) OR Alternatively that they had an upset as they were very very near “coffin corner” for a 737-400 (i.e. close to the high altitude stalling speed at FL350). That’s a very high cruising altitude for a loaded 737-400 less than halfway along their 2 hour route of flight. There could also have been some orographic wave turbulence over the mountains of Sulawesi (depending upon wind direction at the various levels).
If so, the aircraft may have stalled and spun in sudden severe turbulence and may now be somewhere on land/in the ocean – having broken up during recovery efforts at high speeds/g on the way down. This latter guess gets my confident vote for a more likely cause. At FL350 the precipitation shouldn’t be as heavy as at lower/medium levels. However turbulence in and around thunderstorms, even without the orographic influence of high terrain, can be severe. That area has had lots of very nasty ITCZ related weather just lately (ferry sinking etc).
My guess is that they EITHER took a large drink of heavy precipitation and lost both engines (just like’s happened a number of times before with the 732) OR Alternatively that they had an upset as they were very very near “coffin corner” for a 737-400 (i.e. close to the high altitude stalling speed at FL350). That’s a very high cruising altitude for a loaded 737-400 less than halfway along their 2 hour route of flight. There could also have been some orographic wave turbulence over the mountains of Sulawesi (depending upon wind direction at the various levels).
If so, the aircraft may have stalled and spun in sudden severe turbulence and may now be somewhere on land/in the ocean – having broken up during recovery efforts at high speeds/g on the way down. This latter guess gets my confident vote for a more likely cause. At FL350 the precipitation shouldn’t be as heavy as at lower/medium levels. However turbulence in and around thunderstorms, even without the orographic influence of high terrain, can be severe. That area has had lots of very nasty ITCZ related weather just lately (ferry sinking etc).
Last edited by UNCTUOUS; 2nd Jan 2007 at 13:10. Reason: a/c type
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It never made sense to me that they'd have crashed into a peak on Sulawesi if they were overflying for Manado at Flight Level 350.
My guess is that they EITHER took a large drink of heavy precipitation and lost both engines (just like’s happened a number of times before with the 732) OR Alternatively that they had an upset as they were very very near “coffin corner” for a 737-400 (i.e. close to the high altitude stalling speed at FL350). That’s a very high cruising altitude for a loaded 737-400 less than halfway along their 2 hour route of flight. There could also have been some orographic wave turbulence over the mountains of Sulawesi (depending upon wind direction at the various levels).
If so, the aircraft may have stalled and spun in sudden severe turbulence and may now be somewhere on land/in the ocean – having broken up during recovery efforts at high speeds/g on the way down. This latter guess gets my confident vote for a more likely cause. At FL350 the precipitation shouldn’t be as heavy as at lower/medium levels. However turbulence in and around thunderstorms, even without the orographic influence of high terrain, can be severe. That area has had lots of very nasty ITCZ related weather just lately (ferry sinking etc).
My guess is that they EITHER took a large drink of heavy precipitation and lost both engines (just like’s happened a number of times before with the 732) OR Alternatively that they had an upset as they were very very near “coffin corner” for a 737-400 (i.e. close to the high altitude stalling speed at FL350). That’s a very high cruising altitude for a loaded 737-400 less than halfway along their 2 hour route of flight. There could also have been some orographic wave turbulence over the mountains of Sulawesi (depending upon wind direction at the various levels).
If so, the aircraft may have stalled and spun in sudden severe turbulence and may now be somewhere on land/in the ocean – having broken up during recovery efforts at high speeds/g on the way down. This latter guess gets my confident vote for a more likely cause. At FL350 the precipitation shouldn’t be as heavy as at lower/medium levels. However turbulence in and around thunderstorms, even without the orographic influence of high terrain, can be severe. That area has had lots of very nasty ITCZ related weather just lately (ferry sinking etc).
Regards the "12" survivors in mountainous crash site, captain's mobile ringing, footage of rather un-mountainous site ... then complete 360 reversal on that "story" ... we are talking about Indonesia, after all.
My apologies for having quoted a press report about 12 survivors in a remote location. Although I realize that the press and everyone else can confuse facts in the aftermath of a sudden disaster, this is beyond what I expected.
My sympathies and condolences to the friends and families of those lost.
My sympathies and condolences to the friends and families of those lost.
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As of 1131Z 2 Jan. The Jakarta Post states the ADAMAIR flight has NOT yet been found.
see: http://www.thejakartapost.com/detail...2203148&irec=0
Sorry for any raised hopes.
see: http://www.thejakartapost.com/detail...2203148&irec=0
Sorry for any raised hopes.
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Geez, my phone's been ringing too many times since yesterday... This whole thing is going crazy down here!
Guys, beware, there's heaps of misinformation on this accident.
As unsafe as Adam Air is, I know people who work(ed) there and no, they do not play with fuel. The aircraft state however, is a different story. Crews have been intimidated into accepting aircraft that shouldn't fly, those who has tried to leave, have been sued to oblivion... The owners of the airline, what they'd go to to get what they want, is scary.
I do not think the aircraft didn't have enough fuel, the aircraft was fueled for 4 hrs flying (destination + alternate + holding)... the aircraft has been light enough because of the lack in cargo between Xmas and New Year's.
The current scandal is that the plane hasn't been found and that the authorities have been led on a wild goose chase by someone... if the owners are involved in the mis/disinfo, I wouldn't be surprised. This is an airline that had played hide-and-seek with the regulators earlier last year when one 733 went 400NM off course thanks to shoddy maintenance on the IRS.
The NTSC's go-team are knackered tonight thanks to that goose chase. They're out of ideas.
I fear this is actually a simple repeat of last year's Nav error, but this time, luck ran out, the plane descended without Navaid IRS corrections to the FMC, and probably ended up >100NM from the intended destination, and ended up ditching somewhere north of Sulawesi. It was 1st Jan, I doubt the HF freqs were manned...
The NTSC is now considering that as an explanation... somehow...
God Bless those on board.
PK-KAR
Guys, beware, there's heaps of misinformation on this accident.
As unsafe as Adam Air is, I know people who work(ed) there and no, they do not play with fuel. The aircraft state however, is a different story. Crews have been intimidated into accepting aircraft that shouldn't fly, those who has tried to leave, have been sued to oblivion... The owners of the airline, what they'd go to to get what they want, is scary.
I do not think the aircraft didn't have enough fuel, the aircraft was fueled for 4 hrs flying (destination + alternate + holding)... the aircraft has been light enough because of the lack in cargo between Xmas and New Year's.
The current scandal is that the plane hasn't been found and that the authorities have been led on a wild goose chase by someone... if the owners are involved in the mis/disinfo, I wouldn't be surprised. This is an airline that had played hide-and-seek with the regulators earlier last year when one 733 went 400NM off course thanks to shoddy maintenance on the IRS.
The NTSC's go-team are knackered tonight thanks to that goose chase. They're out of ideas.
I fear this is actually a simple repeat of last year's Nav error, but this time, luck ran out, the plane descended without Navaid IRS corrections to the FMC, and probably ended up >100NM from the intended destination, and ended up ditching somewhere north of Sulawesi. It was 1st Jan, I doubt the HF freqs were manned...
The NTSC is now considering that as an explanation... somehow...
God Bless those on board.
PK-KAR
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Unbelieveable huh? Well, it happened! And one wouldn't think it was possible to cover up such a mess, well, they did it, albeit costly and not all were willing to shut up.
And they somehow prevented the accident investigators from reaching the aircraft before it was flown (and no one knows who authorized the ferry flight other than saying "classified") to somewhere else for repairs...
PK-KAR
For Background reading
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=240082
And they somehow prevented the accident investigators from reaching the aircraft before it was flown (and no one knows who authorized the ferry flight other than saying "classified") to somewhere else for repairs...
PK-KAR
For Background reading
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=240082
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Lots of the reports on this calamitous event quote that the aircraft was lost from ATC radar. Do they have ATC radar based on the southern end of Sulawesi? Do they, in fact, have chain coverage of the intended flightpath of the aircraft?
It would appear that they don't. Conversely, if radar coverage does exist, some critical part would appear to have been unserviceable at the time of the disappearance. If all radar had been serviceable then surely the ATC responsible would have been able to more accurately pinpoint the track and point at which the aircraft went missing off screens?
It would appear that they don't. Conversely, if radar coverage does exist, some critical part would appear to have been unserviceable at the time of the disappearance. If all radar had been serviceable then surely the ATC responsible would have been able to more accurately pinpoint the track and point at which the aircraft went missing off screens?
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My thoughts and condolences to all the families involved as a result of this disaster.
It is obviously too early to start apportioning cause or blame, and this may be unrelated to the apparently awful safety culture which PH-KAR has so clearly highlighted in this and the separate post. I only hope the problems he describes do not get in the way of the truth coming out, and ideally, whether related or not, that the investigation highlights some of the practices which have been described so as to make aviation in that area perhaps just a little bit safer!
RIP.
It is obviously too early to start apportioning cause or blame, and this may be unrelated to the apparently awful safety culture which PH-KAR has so clearly highlighted in this and the separate post. I only hope the problems he describes do not get in the way of the truth coming out, and ideally, whether related or not, that the investigation highlights some of the practices which have been described so as to make aviation in that area perhaps just a little bit safer!
RIP.
If the registration is correct, its PK-KKW
Started out with DANAIR, delivered 1/89, G-BNNL
Went to GB Airways and BA
Then onto JAT as YU-AOO. Saw her a few times in ZRH with that register.
What a madness. I hope they find her and those on board soon.....
Best regards
AN2 Driver
Started out with DANAIR, delivered 1/89, G-BNNL
Went to GB Airways and BA
Then onto JAT as YU-AOO. Saw her a few times in ZRH with that register.
What a madness. I hope they find her and those on board soon.....
Best regards
AN2 Driver
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As far as I know, radar coverage on the island only goes for the southern part of the island... about 100 - 150NM surrounding Makassar... and thats it.
Last contact was radial 340 at 100NM... so, it might not have been lost, but simply left the radar coverage area...
PK-KAR
Last contact was radial 340 at 100NM... so, it might not have been lost, but simply left the radar coverage area...
PK-KAR
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PK-KAR
"Crews have been intimidated into accepting aircraft that shouldn't fly, those who has tried to leave, have been sued to oblivion... The owners of the airline, what they'd go to to get what they want, is scary."
While I understand and appreciate your comments about possible intimidation 'tactics', if it applies in this case, one must bear in mind that the regulations (even in Indonesia) do not allow for this or any other crew to accept or operate an aircraft that is not Airworthy.
It's part and parcel of your responsibility as PIC. It's up to the company to maintain its' fleet of aircraft to that standard. So, if you clearly understand your responsibility under the regs, you can't be intimidated into accepting an aircraft that shouldn't fly. Even in Indonesia. It IS that simple.
If you aren't prepared to lose your job for doing your job when you know your company operates this way, then how can any responsible crew accept the kind of intimidation you're suggesting from management which might result in this kind of (yet to be determined) accident? What decision would you have made??? (...after the fact, of course)
How difficult would a wrongful dismissal lawsuit award in favor of the PIC if the company, as it were, decided to sue the crew for not operating or accepting an unsafe aircraft??? What you're suggesting here MAY be a company culture issue as much as it MAY be a potential safety issue if what you're implying is that the crew MAY have been intimidated by the big bosses to operate with deficiencies that MAY have been unacceptable in signing the aircraft out as airworthy.
Whether you lose or will lose your job is a matter of litigation on a separate day. You have a greater responsibility of care under the law, to yourelf and your passengers. Correct?
If this crew did not operate within the confines of Indonesian air law and gave into 'intimidation' then this one MAY very well end up as Pilot Error.
(please note the number of "ifs" and "mays" in my post)
all the best for the New Year,
Willie
"Crews have been intimidated into accepting aircraft that shouldn't fly, those who has tried to leave, have been sued to oblivion... The owners of the airline, what they'd go to to get what they want, is scary."
While I understand and appreciate your comments about possible intimidation 'tactics', if it applies in this case, one must bear in mind that the regulations (even in Indonesia) do not allow for this or any other crew to accept or operate an aircraft that is not Airworthy.
It's part and parcel of your responsibility as PIC. It's up to the company to maintain its' fleet of aircraft to that standard. So, if you clearly understand your responsibility under the regs, you can't be intimidated into accepting an aircraft that shouldn't fly. Even in Indonesia. It IS that simple. If you aren't prepared to lose your job for doing your job when you know your company operates this way, then how can any responsible crew accept the kind of intimidation you're suggesting from management which might result in this kind of (yet to be determined) accident? What decision would you have made??? (...after the fact, of course)
How difficult would a wrongful dismissal lawsuit award in favor of the PIC if the company, as it were, decided to sue the crew for not operating or accepting an unsafe aircraft??? What you're suggesting here MAY be a company culture issue as much as it MAY be a potential safety issue if what you're implying is that the crew MAY have been intimidated by the big bosses to operate with deficiencies that MAY have been unacceptable in signing the aircraft out as airworthy.
Whether you lose or will lose your job is a matter of litigation on a separate day. You have a greater responsibility of care under the law, to yourelf and your passengers. Correct?
If this crew did not operate within the confines of Indonesian air law and gave into 'intimidation' then this one MAY very well end up as Pilot Error.
(please note the number of "ifs" and "mays" in my post)
all the best for the New Year,
Willie