I think you know exactly whom i'm referring to when I say 'managers'. A few local paper pushers, of who we employed far too many to satisfy the 'iron rice bowl' concept is not what i'm on about. When I see a AT, RH or someone on the exec level get the boot (and Ivan doesn't count...as he was 'promoted') then i'll take notice. And as I said more pointedly, when THEY take a pay and benefit cut then maybe the discussion can start. I swear, the number of us on this forum that seem to want to support our management as they drive the airline and our careers into the ground is stupefying.