Originally Posted by
boofhead
Thanks for your comments. I have been entertained.
It was funny to read that pilots think they are as good and as well-trained and educated as Doctors and engineers although most have not been to professional training and any degree was acceptable, even in animal husbandry or cake icing. Because of their exceptional qualifications they should be paid the same as a surgeon. But at the same time a degree is not needed, it is a waste of effort. And of course the only reason pilots don't want to work is because they don't get paid enough. Any small company would be stupid not to pay them as much as a professional engineer even though they cannot pass that cost on to the customers and would go out of business. By the way those pilots all have a professional certificate which makes them qualified beyond belief. It is incomprehensible why many aviation companies will not give them a job, along with the big dollars, even though most have never actually carried a passenger for hire or flown to a small grass airport or flown out of their own State and avoid actually going into cloud even if they have an instrument rating. But watch them fly the simulator! If only the aviation company would give them the training, including airplane training that could cost tens of thousands of dollars, line training and ground instruction/simulator etc, more thousands of dollars, they will then consider working for that company if they are paid enough, and even then they will decide if they really want to do that job after trying it out, because, you know, there are a lot more jobs out there and they really want to fly for the majors so maybe they can give up 6 months to see if it fits?
Wonder why they are not successful?
And why would it take years to get the 1500 hour requirement? Compare the olden days, when most airlines would take a pilot with around 500 hours and actually prefer that to a high-time pilot because then they could train her the way they wanted her to fly and after a suitable period would move her to the left seat as a known commodity and someone who has company loyalty. It worked, you must admit. I had to fight for every job I got under that system and it sorts out the wheat and the chaff pretty quick. Of course it is not fair, but until recently, the idea that the world owed you a living was not a concept realistic people believed.
Now it is easier for a pilot to get a job. The wheel has turned, big time. Pilots who would never have a shot under the old system are guaranteed a career. No need any longer for a degree (that was a recent change, btw). The experience requirements are scaled down to a requirement to be breathing. Yet some still cannot get a job? Maybe it is the attitude? A company has to invest big time in a pilot and needs to know that they will get a return. Someone who wants big bucks, lots of time off, short working days, guaranteed vacations, retirement plans, medical coverage and the like is not a good choice for most small operators because, you might not be aware of this, but they have to make enough money to pay their bills.
When I am talking to a wannabee I want to know what drives him/her. If it is money, or an easy life, or time off, or vacations, the door is right there. If it is an opportunity to learn real flying, get personal satisfaction for a job well done, provide the community with the benefits of their experience and skill, is not afraid to fly at night or in cloud, and looks forward to learning more about an industry they are passionate about, we can talk more. The first guy will let the company, the customers and himself down. The second might not be all that the company wants, might disappoint in some areas, but is by far the preferred candidate.
That is partly why am staggered at the responses I read about here. How can so-called professionals not be concerned for the industry itself? Are you all so self-centered that it is really only about the money? Very disappointing.
And yes, it would take years for the youngster I am talking about to get that airline job. Yes, he will need more than 1500 hours just as the under the old rules he needed more than 250 hours. If he does not need the degree any longer he can shave 4 years off the requirement but how does he get 1500 hours after he gets his CPL/IR? And what use is flight instruction as a CFI at a pilot mill? He knows nothing about aviation but he spends 1200 hours teaching it to other beginners? That is supposed to impress an employer? How does he get multi time? Instrument time? Turbine time? What companies are there that will give him that? He might start out as an intern, why not? Other professional industries expect that. Doctors do that when they start. Pilots have always done that, why does a wannabee who has a CPL and nothing else expect otherwise? Where does it say he is owed?
I figure a pilot who scrambles for any job, will do anything to get a start, will probably fly a couple of hundred hours a year, maybe less than that at first. So, yes, it will take a long time, years of time during which he will not make enough to put gas in his car, if he has a car. But now we are in the entitlement era. Who pays for that? The aviation company? The taxpayer?
Here's a hint: The military needs pilots. They will give you good training on great equipment and will let you work for a degree as well, and pay you too! What a deal!
So if you have not done what you needed to do to get a job that pays you what you want, don't bother crying to me.
And of course the 1500 hour rule can be changed. Did I not just read that the new President and Congress cancelled the ACA? Why did they do that? On a whim?
What was it supposed to do anyway? It had no bearing on the Colgan accident, in fact has made conditions worse. Both those pilots had 1500 hours and an ATP. They were maybe not trained correctly and were tired. To date the training has still not been provided and pilots are working harder than ever and are more tired. Because of the shortage.
But I forgot, you guys cannot read and are not aware of the shortage. If only the evil companies paid more the shortage would go away. Never mind that then the pay would go down again. That this is not happening is proof that there is a genuine shortage and if the industry is to survive we all should be doing what we can encourage more youngsters to follow in our footsteps and fly. If there is not a good base of private pilots, guys and girls who fly for the love of flight, the entire edifice will collapse. You might be sitting at the top, but then your fall will be greater as even the big companies go bankrupt. The skies will be filled with drones. But, hey, you can get 125K to drive them from your bedroom so it is not all bad, right?
If you want to work for a major airline you absolutely need a degree. The regionals may not, but they never really have traditionally, so I don't know why you keep repeating it.
I'm also not sure what your point is. I've worked for $18k per year and commuted halfway across the country, spending 7 days a month in my own bed on poverty level wages. I'll tell you what, the love of flying for the sake of flying fades relatively quickly. However, I did it with a smile because they gave me shot and it was a means toward the brass ring. However, I don't think any professional pilot should be packing ravioli in their bag because they can't afford a meal in a hotel restaurant.
Oh and before that, I was a CFI making even less flying in plenty of IMC.
I'm proud to have gutted it out, but it's not an entitlement mentality to want those who come behind you to not have to earn food stamp level wages. The cost of a degree and flight training today is also much higher than it was even 10 years ago. A $100,000 dollar investment requires a return, just as any other professional job field.
These things cycle like anything else, and until recently there was a massive glut of pilots. You conveniently leave out the fact that just 7 years ago, after years of furloughs at all levels, 1,000 hours wouldn't get you hired at any regional. It took movement at the majors and the economy to create openings that were extremely competitive.
Your disdain for CFI's and lack of knowledge in the area is also telling. I know current CFI's who are getting their doors beat down, and passing interviews before they even hit 1500 hours. If they have a degree its only 1000 hours.
Spending a year to a year and a half as a CFI helps one gain critical PIC skills, and builds a well rounded pilot. Full stop.
I understand there is pressure on smaller operators, and I sympathize with that. However if your business model relies on abusing some new pilot then maybe that segment of the industry is ripe for some change.
It's also funny how you mock a degree, yet the vast majority of guys and gals I fly with have degrees in Professional Aeronautics, engineering of some sort, or business administration. The world is evolving and the major airlines today will tell you they are hiring Captains, not just someone who can fly an airplane.
I love flying and what I do, but without a career path to a top tier job, I would go do something else and fly for fun.