There was Ivan the Great, Ivan the Terrible and we get Ivan the clueless. If we are really in trouble then don't we want to be part of the solution? We, as a body, are proud and proficient. We cannot control what Swire does to the clowns that put us here but do we help or hinder? We are not in an unrecoverable position, just an embarrassing one. If we see a sea change in our management eg actually providing a 'Premier' product etc should we lend a hand? I will leave myself open to the pit bulls but I don't care about them.