PPRuNe Forums - View Single Post - Near CFIT because PIC didn't understand FL
Old 29th Apr 2016, 06:23
  #127 (permalink)  
His dudeness
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
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To me, and a few others who've agreed with this thought; what is the reason they launched into the unknown when all they had to do was ask? That is where this whole thing started; point.
Absolutely, BUT when 2 pilots make a mistake that is bordering on the ridiculous, and not being aware that they are in what you call the unknown, then I think there is something underlying that needs to be found. Of course, they just be cowboys as AS puts it, yet I donīt - with the little info that report gives - think this is a real example of cowboy-ism. I have said it before, fatigue is one of the few things I can imagine letting a seasoned crew make such mistakes... I for one have a lot of lamps blinking when cleared to depart outside a SID - cause flying SIDs is my daily business. Not flying a SID when on an IFR plan is the uncommon that lets me check MSAs etc. rather three than two times. (although we often fly to EGLF) If you`re dead tired (can happen even if when operating within the FDT regs as most pilots will know), and you are used to fly non SID flights, then you might drop that defense...because you simply forget it.

AS, I have been on approach at EDDM/MUC/Munich - which is a very busy airfield, let me assure you - when a Lufthansa A310 called in ready, was cleared to line up and takeoff, After a minute or so the ATCO inquired why they are not moving, the Skipper replied something that the he wasnīt ready yet, the Airbus was then asked to leave the runway. Which they plainly refused. (never witnessed something like that before or after!) The ATCO grew agitated, yet the Lufthansa did not give in. Meanwhile I was ordered to go around from about 3 miles final. Then the A310 Skipper demanded a T/O clearance to EDDF as he was ready now whilst I was basically overflying him in my cowboy toy, a Citation 550 SII. The behavior of this crew during the event and afterwards (I followed them up via telephone, after an uneventful second approach and finally a landing) was something I never ever encountered again and certainly not from a "GA" crew. Which could be anyone from a wealthy dude that just added another toy to his stable to people that fly every day to get some bread onto their table, btw...

If your stretch of airfield/airspace produces such an amount of problems, then YOU have to look at what YOU do in terms of rules and regulations. I assume you where at Luton or Stansted ?

Especially the UK reeks of being different. Driving on the wrong side of the road is the most obvious one, naming convention of STARs and SID contrary to the rest of the world is another one, asking for what services one wishes outside controlled airspace and then replying "only able to offer basic service" at the time is another one etc.etc. IFR in uncontrolled airspace is impossible in Germany, even after SERA an employee of the german air traffic control plus a state servant from the department of traffic just cancelled that for the "D-people". Hence this concept is unknown and was not teached in Germany. There is one reason why some donīt cope with that as they should.

My point here (and that of others): we need to get rid of differences that are unnecessary and only serve to confuse.

Look at the amount of runway excursions they have, all because of chasing greasers.
Do I really need to look up on rwy excursions the "pros" have ? I fly from an airfield that offers 3323 ft of LDA on the main runway with no RESA. The only ones that managed to crash their DO328 there were an "Airline", lord praise them Skygods, based there!
Based on that very field are 2 Excels, a Phenom 300, a Lear 35 without T/Rs (!), a Falcon 2000, 2 Challenger 300, a CJ. 2 CJ3s and a Sovereign. Runway overruns within the last 20 years: Airline 1, GA Jets: none.

A tip: if the speed of someone in a control zone / controlled airspace is too high for you as a controller, then ask him to slow down. My father was an ATCO and he managed to do that just fine - he even married a commercial GA pilot and had to answer to her after duty when making her in a Navajo number two to a LH 737. A brave man he was!
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