Originally Posted by Ewan Whosearmy
As one poster has already alluded to, there was an entire programme dedicated to pitting the MiG-21 (Fishbed C/E and other early models, including Shenyang J-7s) against every tactical fighter in the US arsenal. It was called CONSTANT PEG and it demonstrated without doubt that in the right hands, and with the 'right' RoE in force, the MiG-21 could defeat much more modern and 'capable' fighters.
Yes -
with the 'right' RoE in force a P-51 could beat a F-22 consistently.
They key is to try the aircraft when the only ROE is "use everything you have in and know about both aircraft to win" and see what happens.
Yes, the MiG-21 was a d@mned good fighter - when allowed to use its strengths and not forced into a situation where its weaknesses came into play. It was better than the F-104 and would I would have loved to see it stand toe-to-toe with a F-5E (the 1972 version, not a modernized later one).
However, the reality is that once USAF and USN pilots got some real-world-based air combat maneuvering training, losses of F-4s to MiGs of all sorts dropped drastically in Vietnam - many of the actual (as opposed to claimed) air-air kills of F-4s by MiGs in Vietnam were relatively early on in the conflict, while most of the actual F-4 air-air kills of MiGs were later.
I note that Mr. Noritake's whole "thesis" is about the F-4C vs MiG-21... the F-4D was better, and the F-4E far better than either - as were the USN/USMC's F-4Js/Ns/Ss over the F-4B used in Vietnam.
Both the F-4C/D and the F-4B were poor maneuvering aircraft, with unreliable radars - if they were all the F-4 had been, then I would have sympathy with Mr. N's views.
The USAF's F-5Es were much more maneuverable than the C/Ds (wing slats, etc), the smokeless engines reduced detection distance greatly, and the internal gun was a great improvement as well. Once the radar was fixed low-flying enemy aircraft were easy targets.
I'd really love to see an F-4S against any model of MiG-21 - the 2-position wing slats combined with the slotted stabilators to greatly improve maneuverability, smokeless engines were added, and the radar was superb.
The F-4 was a great aircraft because it could do so many things very well - it was the first really multi-role fighter/strike aircraft in the western world.