Old 10th Dec 2013, 22:33
  #71 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Southeast USA
Posts: 802
Originally Posted by cosmo Kramer
You apparently didn't read my posts.

Cirling approach, downwind, runway behind you, poor weather:
You can't fly (aviate) the aircraft looking out the window, because you may have nothing but a black windscreen a head of you. Hence, you are forced to fly on your ADI.

Visual approach, anywhere one the approach, runway might not even be visible (shallow fog, behind next mountain etc.), good inflight visibility, terrain features recognizable (airport up that valley, behind the next mountain):
This is just the kind of thing I’m trying to point out …

Originally Posted by cosmo Kramer
As you can see, it is the runway that should be kept in visual contact.

There is no requirement to have the runway in sight, as long as you can find your way with other identifiable terrain features…

A circling is rightly a visual maneuver, but flown in IMC conditions.

You are proposing to fly looking out the window when flying downwind. What visual reference do you expect to have?

I think most of us would agree that a visual approach is flow looking out the window, with the only necessary working instrument being the airspeed indicator.
My guess is that you’re having at least some difficulty in recognizing the fact that your statements directly contradict each other. That leaves those of us trying to understand a bit in “a fuddle.”

You say a visual approach is flown looking out the window. You’ve posted quotes from various sources that indicate that a “circle-to-land” is visually flown from the point in which you reach visual conditions until you land. You’ve also said that you cannot fly a circle-to-land if you have to look out the window. What does that mean?

You say that a circle-to-land is “rightly a visual maneuver but flown in IMC conditions.” Do those IMC conditions have a minimum value for you to be legal to initiate the approach? Where do you find what those minimum IMC conditions have to be? What do those numbers mean? What are you supposed to do with that information?

You’ve said that on a “Visual approach, anywhere on the approach, the runway might not even be visible.” Is there anything that the pilot must be able to see to fly a “visual approach” or is it just “the ground.” If it is just the ground – is there no particular object on that ground that must be seen?

If we intend to fly an instrument approach with a circle-to-land clearance, do you not think that those minimums are published for a reason? I’m curious – presuming the ceiling and visibility is exactly what is printed on the chart … what is it that you expect to be able to see when you get to the point where you are about to break off from the instrument approach and being the circle-to-land maneuver? Do you expect to see … the airport … the runway … or some other identifiable ground object? If it is some other object – how would you know what to look for unless it’s printed on the chart? If it is the runway and you later lose sight of that runway (which you say may happen) ... now, what do you do? If, as you say, you know that the runway might not be visible when you get down to circling minimums – why is it you believe you are authorized to begin the approach? Unless, of course, there is some other feature that you can identify visually … but what would that be? There are requirements that exist that tell you when you must initiate a missed approach … right? Would it not be that you lost sight of something – what is that something? Is it what you had in sight initially? What is it that you have to see to continue? Is that information included on the approach chart under "circling minimums?"

Cosmo, my friend … I think confusion is beginning to reign supreme … and it’s not me that’s confused.
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