A few pages ago we were discussing wingtips on VC10s, as this subject has cropped up again on the
XV109 thread in Military Aircrew I've copied some posts into this post so that we can continue this discussion here.
Originally Posted by Chris Scott
Re BA/BY's post, and as Jhieminga will confirm, the 3 standard VC10s originally purchased by BUA were 1103s, with Kucheman (droop-snoot)wingtips and an extended wing chord to enable FL430. They had the cargo door and strengthened main-deck floor. When BUA added the prototype to the fleet (G-ARTA), it was configured as an 1109 with the same wing as the 1103s, but no cargo door. I don't remember the difference in APS weight between the 1103 and the 1109, unfortunately, but doubt it was remarkable, as we were often stretching the payload-range to the limit and a big reduction in empty weight would have been noteworthy.
The Omani a/c at Brooklands is, of course, an ex-BUA/BCAL 1103 (G-ASIX) with cargo door.
Originally Posted by vc10617
The BUA aircraft SIW, SIX and TDJ had the down turned wing tips. The RAF, BOAC, East African, Ghana A/W, did not. MEA might have. The prototype bought by Laker and immediately leased to MEA did I'm sure.
They had non drooping kuchemann tips on the C.MK. 1, Super (K3,K4)
Originally Posted by Jhieminga
MEA used a leased Ghana type 1102 and the prototype leased from Laker, so no downturned wingtips on those aircraft. Although the question of whether G-ARTA had them after its conversion to type 1109 is still open as far as I'm concerned.
The photo below is of the wingtip of G-ARTA after conversion, is it downturned? It could be in my view.
Originally Posted by Chris Scott
As you know well there are three factors here, all of which were definitely present on the 1103s, (e.g., the Brooklands a/c):
(1) chord extension inboard (so the L/E has a mid-span kink);
(2) Kuchemann tip (as you said, this seems to refer to the shape visible in the plan view, not the "droop-snoot";
(3) the "droop-snoot".
Having flown G-ARTA in 1109 config with BUA/BCAL, I'm absolutely sure it had (1) and (2), not least because she was FL430 capable and we used the same cruise-performance charts as the three 1103s, proving the buffet margins were the same. What I cannot confirm is that she had (3), because I simply can't remember (and the F/Es did the walkrounds). I wonder what effect(s) the droop-snoot had on performance. Pity that photo is in silhouette... I cannot disagree with anything vc10617 says.
Originally Posted by vc10617
Ken Scott
The BUA originals, SIW, SIX and TDJ, all had the "droop snoot" tips and were modified with the inbd chord extensions. The prototype, GARTA/OD-AFA MEA was modified too, it was the the 1st to get both as part of the flight test programme. It ended up that only the BOAC/BA/RAF K.2 didn't have either Chord growth and (sure it didn't) K/tips. BTW The chord growth was in the L/E panels not the main wing box /tapered torque box the wing box didn't "step" just the panels and therefor the Slats. Wing tanks were the same internal volume throughout all models.
The inbd Wing fences on the other hand are a nightmare of detail. The BOAC standards were further inbd and were fitted across the forward 1 and 2 tank access panel.There is a removable piece of fence for access to the tank panel.It also had the full chord fence outbd of rib 22. The Ghana A/W "fence" continued around the leading edge ending underneath the L/E panel. Some were slightly bent inbd at front . Never mind the Beaver tail styles over the production run!
Link for pics of..
VC10 G-ARTA
Go down till the BUA picture ,you can see the downward tip.
Originally Posted by Chris Scott
Thanks vc10617,
Looks like we're all in agreement on that aspect of VC10 wing evolution, and thanks for the extra gen on fences. Yes, the pic of G-ARTA being pushed back in latter-BUA livery (still marginally my favourite) - via your link to the BCAL website - does seem to confirm the droop-snoot, because the slats are usefully still retracted.
Presumably the RAF C1s had the same wing as the Super VC10, which did not employ the "droop-snoot", but was otherwise identical to the 1103/1109.
The only thing I'm still in doubt about is the precise terminology: i.e., does "Kuchemann tip" refer to both the plan-view shape AND the droop-snoot, or just the former? If just the former, did the 1101s also have Kuchemann tips?
Originally Posted by Jhieminga
I cannot recall the source but it refers to the shape in plan-view. The 1101s also had Kuchemann tips but without the extra camber.
Originally Posted by vc10617
Chris Scott
I always thought it was the plan view, a large sweeping curve meeting the line of the trailing edge. Might not be though. Kuchmann also introduced/developed/invented winglets, that are on just about anything now. Is this droop on the BUA kites a sort of variation on that theme? I've read a paper by Kuchmann (NASA engineer)on winglet development. There are designs with something like a wing tip tank with vortex (like) generators ay varying angles when viewed from the front, down, level and up. As far as I know not fitted to any production aircraft.
The TSR.2 took it to the extreme, with a down ward tip. Partially developed and built (Fwd section) at Weybridge, Home of the 'Ten.
BTW.You are right about C.Mk.1s and Super wing tips. Not being cambered.