PPRuNe Forums - View Single Post - AF 447 Thread No. 10
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Old 4th March 2013 | 21:38
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Hail, hail the gangs all here!

DOZE!!! I still don't think you understand my point about the insidious effect of the 'bus autotrim WRT the gee command and pitch attitude.

Well yes, but that's exactly what it's supposed to do, and pilots converting to the FBW Airbus series are trained on that aspect of the behaviour.

I don't know if "insidious" is the right word, as the behaviour is drilled into pilot training from the start. From a piloting perspective it's essentially "point and forget", and it applies whether commanding positive pitch, negative pitch or levelling off.

It's undoubtedly an aspect that's different than what went before, but time has shown that it's simple, reliable and works just fine.
Gotta tellya, that if the AF447 crew had a gut understanding of the system, we wouldn't all be here talking about it.

I still see 'bus drivers talking about "commanding" a pitch attitude. WRONG! They command a gee and when reaching desired pitch they release the stick and the THS "autotrims" to maintain the gee for that pitch attitude. In the 'bus, these are very small pitch attitude changes and nothing like the ones we commanded in the Viper. I will grant you that. But basic aero and the controls law prevail. I am not all that sure that the basic 'bus driver understands that.

Up to me, I would demo the control laws down at 15,000 feet or so to eliminate mach effects. Pull up to 10 degrees and watch the trim wheel move as you relax the stick to hold that attitude. Hmmmm. Wait until the AoA protection displays and such kick in and let'er rip! Nose goes down and commanded gee changes, etc. etc.

No need to do a no sierra approach to stall, as the AoA protection limits seem very conservative to me when looking at the manuals.

In the Viper, we would demo the autotrim and have Joe Baggodonuts look back and observe our "THS". Pull up and relax the stick. Eventually get to the AoA limit and see the tail moving more and more until it was commanding full nose down. We commanded trim gee that was not corrected for pitch attitude like the 'bus.


@ PJ

In wings level flight, AoA can be derived from the pitch and the inertial velocity vector regardless of the air data probes/cones. The Sluf and Viper HUD had a "zero sight line" cross, and usually the flight path marker ( FPM) was below it ( negative gees was something else, heh heh). That was your AoA in wings level flight.

I'll still maintain that a HUD with the FPM displayed WRT pitch lines would have provided a big clue as to what was happening. The doggone thing shows exactly where the jet is going without regard for airspeed, altitude, attitude, roll angle, gee, AoA, ad nauseum. Also neat for final approach in crappy weather.

With back stick, the pilot would have seen decreasing FPM angle and moved the stick forward well before the AoA alarms went on. In other words, it would have been like looking out the windshield in daytime, CAVU, with nice scenery in front.

I am still disappointed that many think the 'bus stick commands a pitch attitude and not a small delta in the gee command to reach the desired pitch.
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