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Old 30th Dec 2012, 17:10
  #67 (permalink)  
italia458
 
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LeadSled...

I shouldn't have been so certain about it being ATC's fault. However, I was trying to point out that your experience doesn't justify your position that the approach clearance is only to the threshold and doesn't include the missed approach.

If you look at FAA AIM 5-4-21(h), the first sentence says: "A clearance for an instrument approach procedure includes a clearance to fly the published missed approach procedure, unless otherwise instructed by ATC."

The FAA is quite clear on that.

ICAO reference? - ICAO 8168 Volume II: 6.1.1.1 states: "A missed approach procedure shall be established for each instrument approach and shall specify a point where the procedure begins and a point where it ends."

Not the same as or as clear as the FAA reference, I'm sure I could dig more and get you an ICAO reference that states the same thing as the FAA AIM, but I'll just work with this 6.1.1.1 reference for now. Are you going to tell me that when you're cleared for an approach, you're not cleared to fly the missed approach even though 6.1.1.1 states that a missed approach procedure SHALL be established for each instrument approach? You're saying that when you get a clearance to fly an instrument approach procedure it includes clearance to fly the initial approach segment, intermediate approach segment (if applicable), and the final approach segment, but DOES NOT include clearance to fly the missed approach segment of the instrument approach procedure? I'd like a reference for that.

US TERPS 8260.3B CHG 21 para. 270 states: "A missed approach procedure shall be established for each instrument approach procedure (IAP)."

Canada TP 308 Change 5.3 para. 270 states: "A missed approach procedure shall be established for each IAP."

If you keep reading para. 270 in both the TP 308 document and TERPS document it says this: "The missed approach procedure must be simple, specify an altitude, and a clearance limit." - TP 308, "The missed approach procedure must be simple, specify a charted missed approach altitude (altitude at clearance limit), and a clearance limit fix/facility." - TERPS.

It's pretty clear that the clearance limit is at the end of the missed approach segment.

I could get you the reference for the CAR or FAR that says you must follow the instrument approach procedure but I think that's unnecessary - I will if you'd like though.


aterpster...

The ILS goes to the OCN VOR where holding impinges on a restricted area so ATC bets on the come that they will have radar prior to OCN.
And when an airplane reaches OCN and has been unable to get further clearance from ATC, what is the pilot supposed to do?

FAA AIM 4-4-3(e)(3) states: "If no holding pattern is charted and holding instructions have not been issued, the pilot should ask ATC for holding instructions prior to reaching the fix. This procedure will eliminate the possibility of an aircraft entering a holding pattern other than that desired by ATC. If unable to obtain holding instructions prior to reaching the fix (due to frequency congestion, stuck microphone, etc.), hold in a standard pattern on the course on which you approached the fix and request further clearance as soon as possible. In this event, the altitude/flight level of the aircraft at the clearance limit will be protected so that separation will be provided as required."

Unfortunately, the US TERPS and TP 308 documents just talk about procedure design and not what the pilot shall do.

TC AIM 9.26 is even more clear on the procedures to follow: "Should the pilot arrive at the missed approach holding fix prior to receiving further clearance, the pilot will:

(a) hold in a standard holding pattern on the inbound track used to arrive at the fix;
(b) if there is a published missed approach track to the fix, hold in a standard holding pattern inbound to the fix on this track;
(c) if there is a published shuttle or holding pattern at the fix, hold in this pattern regardless of the missed approach track to the fix; or
(d) if there are published missed approach holding instructions, hold in accordance with these."

I think I've provided sufficient evidence for why I teach that you are to hold at the clearance limit if you do not receive further clearance. I'm sure if I spent more time digging up references I could strengthen my point but I will wait for your response first.

Sorry for my arrogant comment, I was frustrated at the time.

As for my current position: I fly a large aeroplane under the commuter category rules. We need to have aircraft performance determined under very similar regulations to Part 25. I should be going to a Part 25 airplane soon though.

I will admit that the more experience I get, the more knowledgable I will be. But I don't think that my current airplane I'm flying provides any info into whether my knowledge about the subject is correct. I may be young but that doesn't mean my understanding of the system is flawed. I sure do have lots to learn and I could be wrong on a number of things.

Last edited by italia458; 30th Dec 2012 at 18:31.
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