PPRuNe Forums - View Single Post - AF 447 Thread No. 10
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Old 1st Nov 2012, 23:07
  #663 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: florida
Age: 81
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Well, BOAC and Retired have it pretty much the way I see the scenario.

Don't like to be brutal but here I go from a diehard single seater and more. And I had over a 1,500 hours as an IP in different kindsa jets, some side by side, some front seat/back seat, and most as a chase pilot flying maybe 30 feet from the nugget in his single seat jet. Multiply those hours by 8 or 9 to equal the "heavy" pilot IP time.

BOAC has expressed my primary concern. How come the experienced pilot failed to hit the other guy on the head ( boxing glove from the left seat)? The CVR indicates a few cautions and words of advice, but not "commanding" verbiage. e.g. "alternate laws", "we're going up, so go back down". "gently" and so forth. BOAC's point about being BZ with ECAM crapola might also be a factor.

Then what Retired says, which I agree with to the nth degree. A 1.6 gee pull is very noticeable, and that comes from a guy that routinely pulled 5, 6 and even 8 gees in less than 1 second. Unloading to a half a gee is also very severe unless you are flying A2A combat.

The immediate pull is what I am most concerned with. The jet was doing O.K. and then the speed sensors went tango uniform. Big deal. Why the pull up? Why the experienced pilot in the left seat doesn't take some action or yell at the nugget?

For one more time, the gee command doesn't need full back stick to keep increasing pitch attitude. A tenth of gee command can raise or lower the nose at a degree or two per second if you aren't at approach speeds. OTOH, when I see full back stick for a minute or two, it scares me. What was the experienced pilot doing then?

I also agree with BOAC WRT the mechanically connected yokes. My A-7 time was chasing a nugget who was in another airplane! No family models. So I used him as a giant attitude indicator and then glanced down to see speed, AoA and so forth. In the Viper family model we had zero feedback from the nugget in the front seat. The sticks did not move more than 1/8 inch in any case. So I watched and tried to figure out what the nugget was doing. Pitch, power ( at least the throttles were mechanically connected and I could see the tach) and attitude. So the Boeing yoke discussion is moot. Only control aspect that bothers me is the "auto throttle" and no visible/tactile movement when it changes the power.

When I first joined this discussion, I had posited the "deep stall" scenario. But looking at the 'bus charts and such, then the pitch moment coeffiecients, I could see the difference with the 'bus and my Viper. No easy way to keep the 'bus in a stall unless you keep pulling back ( THS doesn't help, either) . Our Viper FLCS prevented you from pushing nose down once we exceeded the AoA limit of 30 degrees or so. The horizontal tails were already commanding nose down. And the aero of the 'bus seems super. Little shaking or buffeting that lets you know you are stalled. It's only the descent rate and attitude that doesn't agree. You know, "gee, I have 10 or 15 degrees of pitch and 10,000 feet per minute of descent rate". Duhhhh? And oh yes, " I am holding full back stick".

As with PJ, I shall try to remain away from the discussion. Will check in every now and then, but seems to me that most agree we had a major failure of crew coordination and a belief that the jet would keep them outta trouble.
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