PPRuNe Forums - View Single Post - Stall speed in climbing turn
View Single Post
Old 25th May 2012, 18:33
  #47 (permalink)  
italia458
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Canada
Age: 37
Posts: 382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I was unable to reply earlier so forgive me for digging things up again.

Tourist...

You can call it what you like, ie downwash etc, but at the end of the day lift is all about AoA and airspeed, and if the airspeed has increased then the AoA has to reduce to stop a roll.
I think we need to define some things here and get an understanding of what they actually mean because there are a lot of terms being thrown around and I don't think we all know exactly what they mean - nomenclature if you will. The text and images below are from one of my aerodynamics textbooks.

According to this picture (http://i.imgur.com/1q1cL.jpg), the definitions are - Fundamentals of Aerodynamics, John D. Anderson, Jr., Chapter 4.2:

The mean camber line is the locus of points halfway between the upper and lower surfaces as measured perpendicular to the mean camber line itself. The most forward and rearward points of the mean camber line are the leading and trailing edges, respectively. The straight line connecting the leading and trailing edges is the chord line of the airfoil, and the precise distance from the leading to the trailing edge measured along the chord line is simply designated the chord c of the airfoil. The camber is the maximum distance between the mean camber line and the chord line, measured perpendicular to the chord line. The thickness is the distance between the upper and lower surfaces, also measured perpendicular to the chord line. The shape of the airfoil at the leading edge is usually circular, with a leading-edge radius of approximately 0.02c. The shapes of all standard NACA airfoils are generated by specifying the shape of the mean camber line and then wrapping a specified symmetrical thickness distribution around the mean camber line.

Something to note is that the chord line, as defined above, is the geometric chord line - based on the clean wing profile. When you look at a Cl vs AoA graph - the AoA is the geometric angle of attack (which is the angle between the geometric chord line and the relative wind) as shown in this picture - http://i.imgur.com/orLUQ.jpg. Therefore, when analyzing the aerodynamics involved here we must proceed with the understanding that the geometric angle of attack does not change with deflection of the ailerons. Also of note is this: if you look at the lift equation you will see a surface area variable. Since fowler flaps increase the surface area of the wing (increasing lift) you would think that the surface area variable in the equation would change - but that's not the case. The increase in surface area of the wing is taken into account completely by the change in coefficient of lift - which is why you see a substantial increase in Cl for fowler flaps compared to other variants of trailing edge flaps.

Going back to the problem - you can't call it "what you want" as you say if you're trying to explain something clearly for everyone to understand. As soon as you start using words that mean something different to someone else, you will never accomplish the task of effectively explaining a phenomenon. It only makes sense to use the nomenclature that is used by engineers and aerodynamicists since they are the ones who have made it possible for us to discuss this topic with some degree of accuracy and clarity.

Yes, pilots are taught that it's all about AoA and airspeed which works somewhat well for pilots to understand and effectively use, however, it's not the full picture and really not true at all. When you're trying to discuss the topic in-depth, and considering this is the Flight Testing forum, we must talk about this using the most correct terms as possible.

So, no the angle of attack (geometric) isn't changing. Just like the Cl changes when the flaps are deflected, the Cl changes when anything about the airfoil changes! That includes the deflection of the ailerons, speed brakes, spoilers, etc. It gets even more complicated than that since the airfoil shape usually never remains constant across the whole wing (tapered wings, washout, etc), among other factors. When you deflect the ailerons you're essentially decreasing/increasing the Cl for the entire wing (since there is usually one Cl figure for the entire wing). Looking back at post #27 I explained a bit about downwash and how that was changing the lift of the wing. It essentially comes down to the upwash/downwash of the wing which tells you how the airfoil will behave and how the airplane will fly. Then all the complicated theories and theorems and laws, etc all try to explain how and a little bit about why this happens.

EDIT: Here is one page out of the Airplane Upset Recovery Training Aid (Airplane Upset Recovery Training Aid | Flight Safety Foundation). It contributes to what I was saying.

https://www.box.com/s/8ca4f81bcf9abe9f4be2

Last edited by italia458; 26th May 2012 at 04:07.
italia458 is offline