Remoak, I was referring to the aircraft. Not the engineers or anybody else involved in its flight. Read my post again. Aircraft are built to fly, always have been, but sometimes they don't, for what ever reason. Sometimes that reason sneaks up on you, sometimes its right in your face (like birdstrike) what the old flying instructor was saying, don't expect it to always do what is expected, to do so is folly, always expect the unexpected, I don't care if it is a Tiger Moth or a A380, or as he also used to say, if it has wings or t$ts, its going to give you trouble somewhere down the track. He was not wrong.